From: Chris Derenberger [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: Contact The Stables Ministries for any reason
"What I would like to see from you is a good study on the verse you want me to believe means gay is sin."
You can read my study on my blog...
gays4jesus: Well as you can see I asked Chris to not condemn gays like he did with a phrase. I used an example http://s91536390.onlinehome.us/gaysforjesus/HebrewGrammer.htm which is very detailed mainly about Leviticus. Of course not a hint or even any acknowledgement at all that he read that info. I did not give it to him as a link like I am here I copied/pasted the whole thing into the reply email I sent him so he had it in front of him. BUT no avail as homophobe reject refuse or any other word to means won’t look at. But he wants me to take the time to go to a link he provided. He starts on his blog entry with the Genesis account God made woman from Adams rib and basically curbs further considerations of study and research as impossible to be different than his rendering, let’s see what he says:
Bible Study on Homosexuals
With the world being so blind to wickedness and sin, I done some research on a topic which is rapidly growing all over the world, homosexuals.
gays4jesus: Tons of info has always existed so it is about time Chris studied
Lets start from the very beginning..
According to the Bible, marriage is ordained by God to be between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:21-24), not once does it mention it being between the same type person. Unless it’s rewritten by mans own word, you will not find this verse EVER referring to two men or two women.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
gays4jesus: It has been rewritten there are two ancient manuscripts that matter meaning in the 2nd century the two were translated to Latin Vulgate. One was correct the other purposely corrupted to take Christ out of Jesus. 15th century got the corrupt to be official Bible of Catholics and in the 1880s Westcott and Hort got it as the official Bible of the Protestants. Today modern versions has 50,000 to 80,000 corruptions so yes man messed with it.
First he puts Adam into narcosis. Then he takes out a "tsela"/rib out of Adam and "banah"/makes Eve. TSELA is the Hebrew word used for rib, and this is an interesting word indeed. Etymologically and semantically it is the exact same word as the Greek word CELL, meaning a small enclosed room in a building as in prison cell. BANAH is translated "make" in NIV, but "build" is a more exact translation. If God had taken a rib from Adam, then in Genesis 2:21-22 (where the event is described), we would see the Hebrew equivalent of the Chaldee "ala," used in Daniel 7:5 to describe a proper, anatomical rib. But that word is not here. Instead, we see the Hebrew word "tsela," which means "a hollow, angular vault."
A hollow, angular vault? Yes.
Rooms at the temple
This same word, "tsela," is used for the side rooms in the millennial temple, described by Ezekiel in Ez. 41:5-26. Read this passage on your own. When you read "side rooms" in both the KJV and the NASB (the Concordant Version of the Old Testament renders them "angle cells"), you are reading the Hebrew "tsela," the same word used in Genesis 2:21 to describe what God took from Adam.
(Note the illustration of Herod's temple, below. Though not strictly accurate, this illustration does show you a couple side rooms--labeled "oil storage" and "Nazarites' court"--built into the walls of the temple. These are by no means ribs, but hollow chambers, vaults, rooms.)
gays4jesus: above were quick references to cell based on the word used for Adam’s rib. Beside the logic that God made us wonderfully and we know the fact we can even clone living things and maybe a human is already cloned today, this is possible because God told us he made Eve out of Adam’s DNA. Again, if there are 2 humans on Earth what did you expect, but which one was black? Blacks came from somewhere (let’s not get into all the facts and theories guesses and wishes about that). You got petite and mucho hunks why? Why hairy bears and smooth as silk guys? There are a million varieties that are explained in genetics, but not explained by you saying God made man and woman so gay is sin.
Marriage is a FACT not guesses and wishes. In Jesus day y our parents decided and it was not for love but for profit of both families. Adam and Eve’s babies had sex and babies for centuries if not the entire 1000 yr. pre-flood. After the Flood it was first cousins on top of that having sex with concubines and slaves and many wives was not an issue. DAVID morning is son talking over his kingdom made him sick, his staff did not go to one of his hundreds of wives not ask in one of his hundreds of concubines. Instead they brought in a cute teenager told her to do all he ask (meaning sex) She was fine with this and was concerned David did not want her. David did not want her not because she was a minor but because his felt sick over his Kingdom falling.
If you notice, there are 2 references to man and woman in verse 24.
1. The man shall leave to cleave unto his wife.
2. He shall leave his father and mother, not father and father or mother and mother
Once again this is repeated in Matthew 19:4-6
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
gays4jesus: nearly no one leaves mother and father for a wife. All leave for career, military, sow wild oats and everything else marriage is Johnny come lately. This verse is an interesting verse, some phrases and verses and even words cannot be taken out of context, but some are context in themselves including the verse they are in. and this :What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” is such a sentence that can be appropriately used as its own entity. Let’s play on words like you are doing, women can put asunder right? Oh I get it you know and assume man means men and woman or people right? How are you able to know women also can’t put asunder? Could it be God that created language ability in humans so that when a speaker speaks to a crowd that he would generalize to the majority and somehow the minority easily understand the message implication for themselves. They do not have to shout out what about me. The Bible speaks to all people, but it is big enough to speak to the minority too so flip a page in the Bible go to another verse and read about the minority. Matt 19 the Apostles said it is not good for man to marry, do we take this now and not marry anymore. Then shockingly Jesus skips beat and explains something most won’t accept. http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm rare to find anyone that has down such in-depth research on ancient born eunuchs. This details how the people of Jesus day thought on the various eunuchs, born that way turns out to be provably gays. It in no way is defining someone born unable to perform. Now if you think it has to be “they can’t” then you are calling Jesus a liar because he said most won’t accept but you are agreeing with most so how can you be right if Jesus said most won’t accept what he says?
Asunder means to tear apart or to separate. Here we see that it is meant for man and woman to be one as flesh. There is no mention of man and man or woman and woman.
gays4jesus: there is no mention of blacks either and it refers to the beginning and so there were no other races so all other races is sin. However, you don’t even have the concept of your own words. You simply accept all races, but choose to deplete gays.
This is utter sickness since this is not even close to topic. Homophobes simple refuse to deal with the 14 verses, they can only entrench themselves in their get away from the meat of the actual verses in the anti-gay doctrine and they wonder off using whatever verse they want to bask in their hatred of gays which is obvious since no attempt is made to explain the verse they say talks about gays. If there is no mention of man and man or woman and woman then why are you using that to say gay is sin? It is the 14 verses that is the doctrine of the Church for 700 years so why are you playing everywhere except those verses. Hope you get into them below:
Sodom and Gomorrah
Clear back in the book of Genesis we see that people were sexually immoral as with Sodom and Gomorrah.
gays4jesus: But how do you get gays into these two cities? So what if the city is sexuality immoral that is a no brainer. Only Lot believed in God, it does not say his daughters or wife believed, they just get rescued for Lot’s sake.
The problem with this story is that people only hear what they want, but I’m going to break it down.
gays4jesus: yep and what you want to hear is “all the men”
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is recorded in Genesis chapters 18-19. Genesis chapter 18 tells us that the Lord and two angels came to speak with Abraham. The Lord informed Abraham that “the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous.” Verses 22-33 record Abraham pleading with the Lord to have mercy on Sodom and Gomorrah because Abraham’s nephew, Lot, and his family lived in Sodom.
gays4jesus: Yes and we also know for a fact that communication was excellent so much so we can joke and say someone with a cell phone called Sodom and said a couple “angels” are coming with bad intentions for the city. What are these cities? Have we found them today? They found cities ok in the area and they found destruction from burning and they found men women and children’s bones in family units. We know Abraham save the King of Sodom once for Lot’s sake. In that story we see commerce wealth and merchandising markets. In other words we see told a story about the region as setting aside the immorality is ordinary cities. Lot did not go to a whole town of gays or even the gay section of town. The cities were generally str8 families as any city. The city had a policy against visitors:
Book of Jasher, Chapter 19
1 And the cities of Sodom had four judges to four cities, and these were their names, Serak in the city of Sodom, Sharkad in Gomorrah, Zabnac in Admah, and Menon in Zeboyim. 2 And Eliezer Abraham's servant applied to them different names, and he converted Serak to Shakra, Sharkad to Shakrura, Zebnac to Kezobim, and Menon to Matzlodin. 3 And by desire of their four judges the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had beds erected in the streets of the cities, and if a man came to these places they laid hold of him and brought him to one of their beds, and by force made him to lie in them. 4 And as he lay down, three men would stand at his head and three at his feet, and measure him by the length of the bed, and if the man was less than the bed these six men would stretch him at each end, and when he cried out to them they would not answer him. 5 And if he was longer than the bed they would draw together the two sides of the bed at each end, until the man had reached the gates of death. 6 And if he continued to cry out to them, they would answer him, saying, Thus shall it be done to a man that cometh into our land. 7 And when men heard all these things that the people of the cities of Sodom did, they refrained from coming there.
Jasher a book very much like Genesis was considered to be put in the Bible. It goes on to tell stories about Lot’s daughter that married and was killed. Jasher details more het activities and does not mention as it were gay activities accept possibly in the first few verses where raping was part of the treatment given to visitors.
Sodom’s people were ready for the 2 angels.
Genesis chapter 19 says the two angels, disguised as human men, visited Sodom and Gomorrah.
gays4jesus: Let’s look at the verse to see if they disguised themselves…
Gen 18:31-19:3 31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. 32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. 33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place. 19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; 2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. 3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. KJV
Well maybe Chris read it somewhere else about the disguising?
Lot met the angels in the city square and urged them to stay at his house. The angels agreed. The Bible then informs us, “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom — both young and old — surrounded the house.
Gen 19:4-5 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
Missing in Chris’ rendering is “all the people” which meant men women and children. This means from 2 cities every boy, grandpa, and male and girls and women came with the men. For the life of me I still don’t see how this says gays came to the house?
They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.’”
gays4jesus: REAL verse: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. KJV
TO KNOW MEANS:
3045 yada` (yaw-dah'); a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) [as follow]: KJV-- acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, makeself) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
Having sex is based on the word “KNEW” in other verses about someone having sex. In Gen. 19 the word means after receiving that cell phone call about the angels coming to town to maybe do harm they really wanted an explanation. But as we know reading Jasher visitor policy was not all that great. We also never even have a hint of an issue about their intentions. The surrounding verses makes it clear they were not inviting the angels to a Sunday picnic at the park.
Now we have many facts. 1. Large groups of people that simple were not happy about the angels being there. 2. Bad city policy for treating visitors. 3. Angel were not coming to help in a better roads for the city project. 4. Sex is not a question it was the intention. 5. This was not sex rituals to fertility gods, the men were not going to pay fertility male temple prostitutes for ritual sex. 6. Lot’s was not going to invite them all over to the local fertility temple for a ritual orgy to celebrate the local god of goddess. 7. We know this cannot be a party and they were inviting the angels to join their orgy they were planning for that evening. 8. No intention of one on one sex or evening a dating process that might lead to falling in love. So what happened or was about to happen?
Well imagine 2 cities of guys that were worked up into a mob to do violence. They agreed to go rape the angels. Now how many people 10, 50, 100, 1000, 10,000? Violent gang rape can only result in death for the victims. This is so horribly perturbing to gays to try to understand how str8 Christians say this is gay sex. Gay sex is like str8 sex your meet someone your date you fall in love you marry. Why is this do hard for homophobes to figure out?
The angels then blinded all the men and urge Lot and his family to flee from the cities to escape the wrath that God was about to deliver.
Genesis 19:6-7 says: And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. How much clearer does it need to be. Lot tells these men to not do this wicked thing!
The original Hebrew text makes it clearer…
and·he-is-saying “must-not-be” Please brothers-of·me you-are-doing-evil
gays4jesus: Come on Chris that is a poor example of original meaning let me help you out here: wickedly = 7489 ra` a` (raw-ah'); a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally): KJV-- afflict, associate selves [by mistake for 7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), showself friendly [by mistake for 7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behaveself, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.
The people were going to kill the angels flat out no if and or buts, not talking about gays here, gays don’t do this.
Lot and his family flee the city, and then “the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah — from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities…”
gays4jesus: Gen 19:14 14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
Where did Lot’s daughters find husbands? No story says they got them from Lot’s tribe and the men stayed in the city anyway.
Let’s see the str8 survivors…
Gen 19:26 26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. KJV
Gen 19:31-36 31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. KJV
Well so much for the str8 survivors…
In light of the passage, the most common response to the question “What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?” is that it was homosexuality. That is how the term “sodomy” came to be used to refer to anal sex between two men, whether consensual or forced. Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual gang rape on the two angels (who were disguised as men). At the same time, it is not biblical to say that homosexuality was the exclusive reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were definitely not exclusive in terms of the sins in which they indulged.
Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares, “49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me.
gays4jesus: always related in Bible studies relating to Gen. 19 Judg 19:22-29 22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. 23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. 24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. 25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. 26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light. 27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. 28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. 29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. KJV
here is a mob that got drunk wanted to rape a male guest but was just fine accept the female to rape instead. Bisexuals is not how you condemn gays, bisexual are a unique creature some studies show as many as 80% are bisexual just not acting on it. It is still gang rape so the bisexual act itself is not the issue it is the gang rape that is. Tricky thing here that often is not mentioned is concubine?? So this supposed otherwise man of God making an example of evil by slicing up the girl actually that girl if today we would say is a whole immoral issue on its own. Concubines put simple is “for sexual use”. So, you today can say well like in the Garden you can have se with siblings and up to the 11th century concubines were ok too.
Hebrew tells us: and·they-are-being-haughty and·they-are-doing abhorrence to·faces-of·me.
gays4jesus: Again Chris leaves the 14 verses (never really at them anyway) and tries to define words to imply how bad gay is.
What is Abhorrence? Abhor means to detest or find repugnant.
The Hebrew word translated “detestable” refers to something that is morally disgusting and is the exact same word used in Leviticus 18:22 that refers to homosexuality as an “abomination.”
gays4jesus: Every use of the word “abomination” in bot Hebrew and Greek has this meaning:
the Hebrew for abomination means acts done worshipping other gods that is why God hates it so... 8441 tow` ebah (to-ay-baw'); or to` ebah (to-ay-baw'); feminine active participle of 8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: KJV-- abominable (custom, thing), abomination.
bdelugma (bde/lugma, NT:946), akin to A, No. 2 and B, denotes an "object of disgust, an abomination." This is said of the image to be set up by Antichrist, Matt 24:15; Mark 13:14; of that which is highly esteemed amongst men, in contrast to its real character in the sight of God, Luke 16:15. The constant association with idolatry suggests that what is highly esteemed among men constitutes an idol in the human heart. In Rev 21:27, entrance is forbidden into the Holy City on the part of the unclean, or one who "maketh an abomination and a lie." It is also used of the contents of the golden cup in the hand of the evil woman described in Rev 17:4, and of the name ascribed to her in the following verse.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)
Hebrew tells us: and·with male not as you-shall-lie-down beds-of woman abhorrence. To put it in better English..
And with another male you shall not lie down as you would with a woman, it is ABHORRENCE!
"v'es zaachaar lo tishkav mishk'vey ishaw to'eyvaa hi."
- "And you shall not lie with a man of lyings with woman..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie with a man of those lying with woman..." (p)
- "And you shall not lie with a man who has lyings with woman..." (g,p)
- "And you, of those lying with woman, shall not lie with a man..." (p)
- "And you, of lyings with woman, shall not lie with a man..." (g)
- "And you, having lyings with woman, shall not lie with a man..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie with a man (as you have) lyings with woman..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie with a man (like you have) lyings with woman..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie with a man (while you have) lyings with woman..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie in beds of woman with a man..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie lyings of woman with a man..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie with a man as a woman lies..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie with a man as (one) lies with woman..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie with a man as (you) lie with woman..." (g)
- "And you shall not lie with a man as with woman..." (g)
In each translation, the manner in which the noun, mishk'vey, is interpreted is denoted by (g) for gerund, and (p) for participle.
Hebrew you don’t have to guess. I already sent this to Chris and of course he didn’t bother to read the list above of correct possible translations. Note: it is possible to translate 3 ways that would mean simply man with man, but translating it that way renders the sentence unreadable so you cannot pull out a meaning that would destroy the sentence, All other 10 ways keeps the sentence readable and in good grammar. Those 10 ways says the man actually has to be str8 and actually did in fact go to bed with women. The argument is not that is was male to male sex but it was by men that love sex with women. Chris you cannot make your point by showing it was male to male sex when one of the males was a “practicing str8 man” FACT FACT FACT and FACT again both in Paul’s day and Moses’ day Hebrew men did really and actually far too often got to fertility temples for ritual sex with the male temple prostitutes. Here it is not that it was a male and a male but it was a provable str8 Hebrew man going to by that fertility’s temple’s terms a very sacred temple prostitute. Paul in fact did visit a temple and spoke there, in that temple was the very statue to the unknown god Paul used in a later book. That temple had over 1000 temple prostitutes. I will shoot a TV program the ruins of that temple around March of 2011 want to come with me?
It amuses me when people say that this verse means that you can still lie with another man, but just not the same way you do with a woman. Well, considering that male and female have different parts, that would be impossible to do anyways. It’s clearly written that if a man lies with another man, it is abhorrence or detestable in God’s eyes.
gays4jesus: Disgusting Chris.. You call this study results? I am 64 years old where have you heard anyone say “just not the same way”? But again many homophobes gets jollies out of talking about gay sex acts. Yeah but sure no problem for str8 men to play then as you are wishing gay sex with their woman. Almost all porn sites shows what is almost completely thought by homophobes to be gay acts. Real life lots of gays do not do that.
Wrong common explanation by gays is it is Levites being addressed and because they serve the temple they have different rules one being no gay sex, but all the other tribe that rule does not apply. I so completely did not believe this when I first heard it is 1974 because it is just NOT GOD period. God JUST is not going to say all you str8 Levites have all the sex you want but if you happen to gay no sex for you. There had to be another answer. I knew one day I would find it. I did scroll up already talked about it.
A very significant note to Hebrew LAW and custom. You just don’t put to death:
Lev 20:13 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. KJV
This LAW is very specific on the manner it is carried out. The accuser must do the killing. Meaning Chris says John is gay, Hebrew law then commands Chris to stone John to death. This is how that verses command was to be fulfilled
Abomination in the entire Bible OT and NT is 100% associated with acts done worshipping other gods Sodomites “male temple prostitutes” is specifically acts to other gods..
The book of Leviticus continues and says:
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
gays4jesus: included are many verses of things we do today that we don’t even give second thought as to being sin or not. And it is talking specifically about acts done in a other gods religious order. God is jealous and when you go after other gods you are like a wife committing adultery.
OT:802 OT:802 hV*a! 'ishshah (ish-shaw'); feminine of OT:376 or OT:582; irregular plural, nashiym (naw-sheem'); a woman (used in the same wide sense as OT:582): KJV - [adulter] ess, each, every, female, X many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Its start with adulteress and when you take time to track the use through the Bible you get a generally immoral woman.
Jude 1:7 declares, “…Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire..” So, again, while homosexuality was not the only sin in which the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah indulged, it does appear to be the primary reason for the destruction of the cities.
gays4jesus: again you assume gays are the story in Sodom, the story cumulated in an attempt at gang rape that would kill the victims.
Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. KJV
Strong's #4205:pornos (pronounced por'-nos)
from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of 4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine):--fornicator, whoremonger.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon: pornos 1) a man who prostitutes his body to another' s lust for hire 2) a male prostitute 3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator
Now Jude does not actually use this as its specific choice of fornication, however Jude is slightly more vague and you can’t get much more than general sexual immorality. But other very closely related verses do go into detail with lists of sins and as you see the closest you get to gays is a ordinary prostitute. Problem is in Paul’s day gays nearly never go to prostitutes, today a lot gays do go to go to them after all they don’t dare let you know they are gay by living with a man as a lover right?
But also the word “strange flesh” means not human i.e. angels. It may be quite likely the men knew these were angels. Angels did come down and did have sex with women.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. KJV
Plenty of pages around to show that human knew about angels or the like and were quite able to have sex with humans.
Pre-Sodom you don’t have God talking to Abraham about same sex stuff, God just said it’s a bad city and we can find listed this bad stuff, the primary thing was inhospitably over and over again in the Bible this was extremely important in those days to treat guest right. A father rather hand over his daughter before his guest.
Those who attempt to explain away the biblical condemnations of homosexuality claim that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitality. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were certainly being inhospitable. There is probably nothing more inhospitable than homosexual gang rape. But to say God completely destroyed two cities and all their inhabitants for being inhospitable clearly misses the point. While Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of many other horrendous sins, homosexuality was the reason God poured fiery sulfur on the cities, completely destroying them and all of their inhabitants. To this day, the area where Sodom and Gomorrah were located remains a desolate wasteland.
gays4jesus: Ezekiel 16:46-50
Your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. You not only followed their ways, and acted according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it. ******
So then Hebrew did the same and worst. So let’s look at the history books and the Bible. Really really hard to find the Hebrew people being all gays or places of gays that seem to be like Sodom. Chris help me out I would like to see where Israel were all gay and out gang raping.. Now being inhospitable and raping we can find. Going to other gods we find. Plenty Hebrew men went to male temple prostitutes too. But how and where do you see Israel “You not only followed their ways, and acted according to their abominations;”.
Romans 1:26 says: Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
gays4jesus: You are doing exactly as I told you I would expect you would do just quote a verse then make the assumption it is condemning gays without backup.
Who did God gave over?
Rom 1:18-23 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. KJV
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. KJV
The least you could have done was paste the entire context of the story, but homophobes then will see they ripped apart a story and inserted new character as they wish.
There are the THEY people WERE STR8 and they turned from GOD to gods. So the very first thing you know in this story is many Hebrew people turned to other gods as adults because it describes this, it is not talking children here. They had to be str8 because you Chris said they were gay in 26-27. We know they could not be gay earlier because God did something in verse 24 these THEY people were not this way at first.
5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591. 5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
Greek is specific and shows nature/natural is not our modern scientific definitions of today. Greek says SEED AND INSTINCT sums up nature and natural. This means you do not choose or become or are given over to being gay after you are an adult. It means in the ancient Greek meaning you absolutely had to be str8 and loved it then did gay sex things. Well with 700 million gays today you can prove beyond doubt no gay turned from God as an adult and that before he turned from God he was enjoying str8 sex regularly. So after turning to other gods these 700 million gays became gay. This is just stupid but worse yet you cannot understand this at all. I cannot at all comprehend how you think gays are burning in vile lust one for another. Gays are doing EXACTLY what str8s do that is consider fine as in acceptably moral. Meaning meet, date, fall in love, marry. This is str8 and it is gay. Romans does not describe gays behaving “meet, date, fall in love, marry” Romans describes act done in fertility ritual orgies. God gave those THEY Hebrew over to join the fertility temples in their sacred ritual orgies to those gods. This is true history and the fact of Both Moses’ and Paul’s pet peeve against the people of God. They all too often went after other gods. Paul did not visit the gay community so God inspired him to condemn gays. Lastly verses 28-32 describes in detail behaviors which we all know we commit some in the list, but generally we assume this list is to define especially and very public behaviors of people that God himself made to have uncontrollable urges to behave these evil things with no regards for others.
Real life gays are about as opposite as you can get for Romans 1:28-32. Employers say gays are their best workers, health system would collapse is gays left it, military show the most velour being gay units.. The list is very long of good deeds form most gays. Again lie after lie after lie homophobes say about gays, Gays are not Romans 1:26-27.
1 Corinthians 1:9 says: you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
gays4jesus: Actual verse is: 1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, KJV
Chris used the NIV: Would it surprise you that the holder of the Copyright of the New International Version Bible also holds the copyright for Hustler magazine - pornography. Rupert Murdock, called "Media's prince of Darkness" by Chicago columnist Mike Royco, owns the copyright & exclusive printing rights on the most sold newer Bible version in the world, the NIV (through Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids Michigan, which he owns). Murdoch also owns the copyright on another corrupt Bible version, the Amplified Version.
NIV is about the most corrupt version after the NKJV. Modern version Bible have 50,000 to 80,000 corruptions see Westcott and Hort of the 1880s. I call modern versions “satan counterfeit Bibles” designed to take Christ out of Jesus and to condition readers to eventually with other great deception think that man over there is Jesus after all.
In 1850 at a USA clergy convention they agreed that they had to change how this verse needs to be taught. Up to then it was taught masturbators would not inherit. They all agreed everyone MB’d and so Heaven would be empty. They picked gays to replace MBs because who would miss them they still then had the 600 year old false doctrine with 12 verses what is adding 2 more (auto included is 1 Tim. 1:10. Now in 1946 the first modern version to hit the shelves (modern versions are useless pre-Israel being a nation, I explain this on my site and TV programs) and both arsenokoites and malakos were removed completely from that version and a non-Bible word inserted “homosexual”. In Paul’s day there were at least 9 Greek words that could mean gays as we would know gays today.
Paul’s word arsenokoites is about as direct from the Hebrew word: 6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean. 6942 qadash (kaw-dash'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): KJV-- appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied oneself,), X wholly. 6943 Qedesh (keh'-desh); from 6942; a sanctum; Kedesh, the name of four places in Palestine: KJV-- Kedesh.
This is the key word in 7 of the 14 verses people use to say gay is sin. If this word does not mean gay then instantly you erased 7 verses from the condemnation list. That has to mean raising questions about the rest. Now this verse has been taught many ways in the last few centuries. One is a roll playing one is the man the other the woman. This is stupid most real gays are gay because they like same sex and playing a roll of the other sex is not really gay. Because we have TS,TV,TG and queens that are extremely visible does not make the bulk of gays playing any sort of roll. The next teaching is one is an older man and one is a younger male or boy describing a pedophile like relationship again does not define gays. FACT also is 3% gays are Peds while 7% str8s are peds which is meaning because it is based in % not actual counts that proportionately str8s are the more evil in this behavior. So what is the real meaning?
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.
The “a sodomite”: note “ : “ means whatever comes after still is referring to a “sodomite”
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
This does not change because Paul played with the Greek word it is still derived from the currently known “sodomites” as I said earlier summarizing like today we s ay “a church on every corner” Paul could say “a fertility temple on every corner” (both in Corinth and Rome).
I did several programs in Rome personally. One was at the ruins of the temple of Cybele:
To the Phoenicians she was Astarte; to the Phrygians,Cybele; to the Babylonians, Ishtar; to the Thracians, Bendis; to the Cretans, Rhea; to the Ephesians, Artemis; to the Canaanites, Atargatis; to the Persians, Anaitis; to the Cappadocians, Ma. But though her names differ, her attributes are the same - she is always the mother who succours and helps, and who bestows fertility. This composite figure was generally known as Magna Mater, the great mother, and it was said that she was mother of all the other gods...
Who were the
unholy priests of Cybele?
The priests of Cybele (this Link will open in a new page), were called gallus or galli, referring to their man-made eunuch status. They were physically castrated to further their sexual service to the fertility goddess. Male worshipers would engage in anal sex with the priests, as an offering to the goddess. This is the shameful activity Paul refers to in Romans 1:27.
Bas Relief of anArchigalla priest of Cybele.
An Archigalla was a head priest.
"Galli, castrated, male, eunuch priests, were found in many goddess cults. They functioned as representatives of the goddess, offering themselves sexually to male worshippers.
These religious practices flourished in first century Rome."
A Dictionary Of Greek And Roman Antiquities, Third Edition, Appleton, 1874, p. 566, Galli definition.
So the sodomites are temple prostitutes with a great deal of history behind them no wishes or guesses needed. Is there more? How can we get more history about Paul’s word “arsenokoites”? Well hate to break it to you Chris but yes there is tons more, but I will give you the obvious.
The Greek Language Thesaurus, UC-Irvine, lists 73 occurrences of the arsenokoit stem from Paul’s first century AD use in 1 Corinthians 6:9 to AD 1453.
The First 56 Uses of
The Arsenokoit Stem
http://www.gaychristian101.com/Define-Arsenokoites.html Click to read these 56 usages none talked about gays.
I specifically told you I did not want you just to send me a verse, but as we go through what you call your study it is mostly copy/paste a verse. 1 Cor. 6:9 I just covered the tip of the iceberg, but all you did was state the verse and you used a satan counterfeit Bible.
1 Corinthians 7:1-2 says: Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
Ephesians 5:22-29 says: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansinga her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church.
Any yet, we see our country turning back into a Sodom and Gomorrah. It’s only a matter of time God will clean it up again His way.
gays4jesus: Here again you wonder off to many other verses that do not talk about gays we are left to assume gay is sin with no back up at all. Again, the Bible is to currently 7 billion people and to all that have died in the past 6000 years. Without having to deal with probably your comeback of stupidity about then why not murderers for Jesus meaning its ok to murder (so many homophobes assume if gay is ok then every other sin is ok too such sickness from people calling themselves Christian), The Bible is written to all people and those falling into minority groups find ease in fitting their minority into the message given to all humanity.
The country was founded in a race to own where the Washington monument sits. It is called God’s holy Longitude. Egypt knew about it 1000 years before anyone came to our soil. The Vatican, the Protestant leaders and the Masons all had the goal to won that piece of land. Masons won the race and the USA was founded by Masons and set up with the goal to make the USA the birth place of “New Atlantis” (antichrist’s Kingdom as we know it). Most signers of the constitution were FreeMasons. The as you wish Christians that came here came because they were persecuted by Europe’s Christians. These were the Puritans we would know them a Quaker like and we certainly would never even think for a second to live like they did yet we kept some of their teachings namely a most heinous teaching against gays of the Catholic invented doctrine to purge leaders from power which the Protestants adopted 100 years afterwards. Every president except one or so was a 33rd degree Mason along with many Christian household names. IE Billy Graham is a recent recognize household name 33rd degree Mason. This level means they believe Lucifer never fell and is God and that God father of Jesus is the enemy. Plenty of deception flying around so be it if you love those deceptions. But the USA though many of blessings from God because overall much Christianity survived this evil beginning. To blame recent events on the downfall of the USA as you state is stupid and ignorant of history. God’s plan is to rise up superpower to spank his people in the Last days, antichrist’s kingdom is that final superpower. The Bible says God rises such nations to spank his disobedient people. Lev. 26 in the 4th level of disobedience is the state of the Church today. I have been preaching on these topics on TV since 1985 I do know considerable about what I am telling you, this idiosity that growing gay rights is going to influence the downfall is blatantly wrong. The evil is in who we as Christian vote into power. Jesus is soon to return of course things will be worse. FACT rights movements are based in long term diligent progressing movements. Blacks took 400 years to gain rights, women only last century got the right to vote and more recently closer to rights at the workplace, equal; pay for equal work. These movements take a specific path and is pretty predictable through its stages and is most certainly of GOD. Gay rights movement is taking that same path and it is not a fly by night thing. The stages are well recorded and actually started by one therapist in the late 40s, finally God gave gays pastors in 1967 and 68, secular gays began the political fight for equal rights. These stages are very normal and mostly as in any minority seeking rights Christians are often the ones that fight against it. Galileo had to be in the closet and write in code about the Earth going around the Sun and today we are most glad he did write it down, but the then Church leadership would excommunicate him if he persisted.
Let’s look at married first pre-marriage 69% single Christian has sex on their first date, then 60% divorce and most of those divorce more than once. What cleaning do you refer to concerning str8s? Why are you so concerned about gays with you got a beam in your eye and can’t even see to clean up your act and you want to condemn gays? God has prepared a time to clean up your act it will take 1260 days and so many Christians maybe 2/3 will turn their backs on Jesus because they so love their lives that seeing what disobedience they are in (4th level Lev 26) they can’t accept this and so that man over there seem so much more like Jesus after all.
Str8s have large numbers of sexual partners, TV and movies depicts life, you may be one of the rare on woman mam, this gives you no right to judge others that go through many partners to get to the right one. 12th century changed the way we marry, out is parental choice. We will disown our parents before allowing them to choose our mate. Exaggerating for effect and a point.
I have been with my lover for 21 ½ years and you are telling me I am like Sodom? I have over 1 million contacts with people to some degree since 1985. My ministry is a worldwide outreach gays and str8s and parent all around the world want to talk to me online and do. I know at least 800,000 homophobe have contacted me also. Go ahead tell me I do not know what I am talking about or missed some group. Other religions also come to me to talk for many reasons. I know the ex-gay movement very well want to test me out about gays changing to str8 come on I’ll talk with you on the 10,000 of contacts from ex-gays and ex-gay leaders and ministries. Of course there are not that many ministries. You want that ministry plus ministry then PFLAG is your best bet concerning homophobes. More delivered homophobes that make ex-gays look like a drop in the bucket for the number of ex-gays there are. Once again the cleanup begins soon before the Rapture. The process is God will nearly force you to put on your wedding gown. The Rapture can’t get a hold on your regular clothes so you would have to stay the rest of the trib. More on this in my sites.
We can clearly see that we are living in the last days per 2 Timothy 3:1-5
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
gays4jesus: 700 million gays bet you can’t find many that live as you describe above. It is pretty sick that you Chris can call 700 million gays that above description. Why did you add this to your supposed gay is sin study? If you are just mouthing off pretending to be a prophecy teacher just preaching a Last Days message you need to separate that as a different topic than add in into what you are calling your study on gays in the Bible as being sin. Read what you wrote. I am trusted at my work to run the entire place over 130 people. I got access to everything there. So this makes me what you just described? At my work there are easily 10% gay and guess what no guess work you can see from a mile away they are the best and hardest workers. Rare they call out sick or find excuses to leave. There are on time and get many times more work done than str8 co-workers, but yes many good str8 workers too, but you have to deal with the lazy want to leave early call out sick so often. What do I hear in break room? Party party party that often result in calling out the next day sick. I partied in my day before saved I never ever called out sick no matter the hangover. Work is what you hired on to do,, it is your fault you partied so suffer it and don’t make your co-workers do your job. This may sound picky, but I have worked since 1956 in some fashion, I been in the military and worked a number of places, been a manager now for 16 years. ( of course managed in the military too so that add a couple years). I am long winded on this because you are calling all gays “2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.” In the context of your gay is sin study.
gays4jesus: My studies begin years before accepting Jesus Jan. 27th, 1974 at 9:45pm at a Prophecy rally in Hawthorne Calif. My first studies were what I call “I lived in Christian books stores” meaning more than twice a week I went to read everything I could concerning gays in those places and of course they would be predominately anti-gay. But in the homophobic authors it was plenty enough easy to see lie after lie about gays and the facts and verses just did not describe gays. I am gay I know who I am and what I do and what I like and it was not describe in any verses used against gays. Then I found with the MCC churches books by pro-gay (namely str8 Assemblies of God woman that work for years in ex-gay ministries and found gay were not in the verses used by the ex-gay ministry) She did her homework and wrote about 6 books I still have most of them and I did several 1 hour TV programs with her as my guest for those hours. Her books really were great and in-depth and fairly well done. Then I found other books and more books, I sure read lots. I read many testimonies of gays and much more. Besides getting first and second hand info about secret government stuff over the years I accumulated a lot of knowledge not knowing I would be talking about it one day. Before my salvation I fully enjoyed reading about history, cultures ancient times science and much more. I knew a lot about things that go bump in the night and my policy since 5 years old was there was no god period so anything resembling a god was only to be scientifically analogized. I love this it was extremely interesting to figure out why things were and what really happened. And I saw things and I saw things and I had visions I assumed were dreams and much more. God was with me and taught me every step of my atheistic days lasting to age 27. After which I recognized some 3 years before accepting Jesus (Jesus came to me and stayed for lack of better description) I got baptized in the Holy Spirit I had no name for it but had theories, it just was fantastic and gave me much what Christian call operation in the Spirit. Jesus loved me and I him and he told me about himself without telling me he was Jesus, I forbade that even the day I was on the freeway in a place that no radio station could be consistent and of course you get this nut talking about Jesus (this really bad in the days I drove from Las Vegas to Riverside often when in the military) but this time this nut was describing conversations and relationship with Jesus that was so much like I had. My head was swimming how could this be, how could this guy be having this sort of things saying it was with Jesus and it was like what I was having. (simple answer accept Jesus and Jesus comes into you 24/7 from now on and has a personal best friends relationship with you not hard at all to understand) but since I loved the truth I said something driving 65 MPH on the freeway. I could not handle it tear were flooding and I was about to deal with my policy “beyond a shadow of a doubt there was no god” But my love for truth I had to say if I so loved truth and god was truth then I would have to accept truth. Wild crazy stupid dumb whatever, I decided to say to GOD if you are truth (meaning of course if there was a god it would be God father of Jesus and God of the Bible never a hint to me that it could be any other kind of god) I would accept you. I gave know conditions just a statement if you are the truth. Well God is the truth I had no hope. 30 days later I through several unusual events I was praying the sinner’s prayer at that rally. I had to add in my prayer that was not in the pray the word I say (Doug Clark “Amazing Prophecies”) my addition was there 3 feet behind me in the first row (I was at the alter with some 100 other praying that prayer) was my lover whom I loved. I said It is Christians that say gay is sin so if it really is sin I would leave him, but I said if you are truth so it I s truth I want not say so words of people who were known to condemn gays ”Christians”. That began my quest for truth about gays. I still learn much today, each new things is even seeming more pronounced that gay is not sin. There is so much to gays place in the Church and in the Last days it will shock many as it heals the Church.
Once again I plead to you Chris and to all that read that think gay is sin to do more than quote verses and not explain them. Stop telling lies about gays they are not the evil people you use the Bible to say they are. We are not gang rapists and we are not male temple prostitutes.