Between You and Jason Johnson
Jason Johnson January 30 at 9:46pm Report
Good day Sir. I read a post you submitted and wanted to ask a few questions. This is not an attack on you or your beliefs so please prayerfully consider my questions and comments.
gays4jesus: 800,000 in 3 years of counting contacts with homophobes direct or indirect with my ministry (now 23 year after stopped counting) it is always an attack because never any attempt from the homophobe to give facts on Bible words or history or other/any hard core tangible proof that what they state. They maintain an assumed gay is sin stand period.
As a person who has struggled with homosexuality for years and a current youth pastor, I am always interested in having conversations, not debates or arguments, with those who challenge or disagree with the concept of homosexuality as sin.
gays4jesus: Your first sentence implies gay is an issue that can be talked about with little or no emotions as though you are talking about the weather. However, gay is an extreme emotional concern and so cannot be talked as simple my opinion or yours. The gay issues are set in concrete and the Bible a done deal in that it is not something you can change be evolution of words or customs. Truth sets people free not lies. Being gay is not a concept anyway it is who one is as is being str8. Being str8 or gay is something you have to deal with not a vague la la land fantasy someone is living out.
The word "struggled" is also a homophobic invention evolving a word to fit a false doctrine that was invented 700 years ago. The actual act you say is "struggled with" is you hearing the hatred of the Church in general against who you are. The word struggle here used by people trying to be str8 actually means giving into the false doctrine against gays and rejecting truth from actual Hebrew/Greek ancient meaning and history and real life.
"These verses do not talk about gays and most are from a 700 year old false doctrine invented to create scandal to purge leaders from power." This quote is at the end of your post from December 24, 2009. I was curious if any evidence or documentation is available to support this.
gays4jesus: There are plenty enough documents showing the time period a few powerful Catholic leaders invented this false doctrine. Here is a clip from "The Student Reference Library":
Religion has been of central importance in shaping this climate. Until the thirteenth century, the Christian tradition was ambiguous in its attitude toward homosexuality. But with the recodification of canon law under the influence of Thomas Aquinas, new attitudes set in. Homosexual behavior was thereafter excoriated as a heinous sin. The English carried these beliefs to North America, and the power of religion in early America guaranteed that such beliefs would shape colonial attitudes.
http://www.gaychristian101.com/index.html Is also a great resource showing the documentation of facts concerning the verses and Christian history.
Also, you commented on Romans 1:18-32 saying that God changed them and the result was visible evil. Did God change them or merely allow them to pursue the evil they were already engaged in? And since it is labeled as evil, wouldn't that qualify the act as sin?
gays4jesus: "THE ACT" is the question here. and "THE ACT" is not gays having sex. "THE ACT" is str8 adults turned from GOD to gods. The ACT of GOD was/is 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Asking me what God did can't be the point as the verse says God gave them over. This is much more than a simple I like it so I am going to do it thing. God harden Pharaoh's heart Pharaoh did not simply change his mind on his own. Hebrew men and even women did in fact go to fertility temples and did in fact participate in ritual orgies to fertility gods/goddesses. gay, str8, sin, these 3 words are not compatible. Human, sin, these 2 words are completely compatible. Yes going after other gods is evil.
One further note: sex is not the issue of purity issues. Sex is a escape goat for ministers to use to try to get people to think they are sinful. Generally sex is part of human social life. People want friends and love. This usually results in 2 people living together generally called a marriage. Friends is the social network we want as an extension to be with others. Sin messages should be more directed at the truly evil. We all know we all have sinned, but the messages given is like sex is about the only thing that matters to God in what is evil about people. Bush is evil, Obama is evil Politian mostly are evil. FACTS prove most leaders in the world are working directly for a one world government we call antichrist's kingdom. Joining freemasons is evil, reading modern version Bibles is evil. Forms of lying is evil. All lies are not serious, God told many to lie (a way to win wars, lie to your enemies to set a trap). Hate is evil, hate does not search for truth, love searches for truth.
I believe that homosexuality is not a salvific issue.
gays4jesus: Don't know "salvific" salvation issues maybe?
However, I am not fully convinced that it is a sinless act.
gays4jesus: you state: "As a person who has struggled with homosexuality for years and a current youth pastor" Seems like you had lots of time to learn gay is not sin. Only 14 verses to deal with and maybe a couple more vague lesbian ones. As a youth pastor you should have as your highest goal not to teach false doctrine to the young.
Even if we were to admit that it is a sin,
gays4jesus: not accusing of being a homophobe but homophobes loves what if games. "What if all were gay" Well 90% are str8 and it is an absolute not going to be different for a what if game. Gay is not sin so a "even if game" sends you off in the wrong direction and truth is a longer journey that if you went to the word sodomite in 7 of the 14 verses and found it meant "male temple prostitutes" not gays.
it does not stand apart from any other sin whether the hate breeders of society believe it does or not.
gays4jesus: gay is not sin so cannot be in a sin list and cannot be able to stand with or stand apart from other sins.
(I am not meaning those who believe it is sin, but those who commit violence and cast shame on homosexuals with the purposeful intent of causing undue physical or mental/emotional harm.
gays4jesus: Believing gay is sin is an extreme form of violence. It not only kills (murders) is bans gays from Heaven. It give no hope in God. It rips apart Church fellowship and families and much more. Because we see no blood does not make it less violent.
To feel shame is not the result of such an act if indeed the person is sinning for the Holy Spirit tells us when our morals are off center just as a guard rail or vibration strip on either side of a highway indicates that we are off the intended path. To continue to live in shame, however, is to deny the freedom Christ has given..Romans 8:1)
gays4jesus: This shame you speak of is forced on gays not all gays do their homework and often they believe the hatred from their pastor's mouth. Being gay does not mean they know the truth. The Church as a normal process for the last 2000 years (and the people of God back to Adam) has this in common "to hate others" by God's Grace life can be lived without having to be in the middle of that hatred all the time. But stories abound of those who spent their lives in the middle of Church hatred. To associate "to continue" you said shame but meant sin is also a common homophobic doctrine against gays. Generally this "to continue in" phase is greatly abused. Bush continues to live in sin and is un-repented. Pastors live in sin often and teach lies abundantly again by the Grace of God mostly enough of the good news is preached to enable generally decent Christian life. We are talking extremes and extremes though serious are just part of what will soon be washed away in the 1260 days of shaking the Church that is coming.
In my studies of human development, I am reading more and more that there is no link between the sexual orientation of the parents and the rate of these kids being either heterosexual or homosexual. The rate of kids being homosexual is the same for homosexual parents as it is for heterosexual parents. This leads me to wonder how much genetics play a part,
gays4jesus: The "RIB" means "CELL from that RIB" in the original Hebrew. There are two Bible words for rib and they mean differently. One if use in Adam would be the BONE, the other would mean genes DNA Cell which means when God made woman he sort of cloned Adam. But not really because probably the best our science can do is clone a human, God would put a soul in that clone because the clone would breathe and that is when God puts the soul in. But God did differently he reprogrammed the DNA "not adding anything" so that there would be a diversity, in Eve's case being a woman. The gay genetics ends up being a solid 10% and many other traits also has % numbers. Biologics requires a well rounded knowledge because of the loop wholes in theories.
but I am also curious what the statistics are regarding childhood same sex molestation and homosexuality.
gays4jesus: it is more important to note 97% of molestation is by str8s and 3% by gays. If things were according to hoil it should be a 90/10 ratio. Molestation as with most sexual immorality is and always has been "str8s are the kings and queens of sexual immorality"
Nearly all gays are not molested. I personally have done uncountable interviews with gays (10s of 1000s at least) it is so very rare in reality that molestation is involved. Most knew they were gay and even active by puberty. Molestation is a homophobic lie. This is a human issue not an orientation issue. To point out this as a resource to add to the list to make gays seem more sinful is a lie.
One MCC pastor I spoke with believed that there was no relation between the two. His reasoning was that he was molested by a male as was his brother, but only he was gay and not his brother. His answer was given with anger in his voice. The same situation is true with my brother and I. I accepted homosexuality as part of who I am while my brother continues to hate men and has been in many fights with them and admitted to me that he feels that way due to the molestation that occurred. So, one victim acting out their homosexual attractions and the other not doing so does not seem like an adequate defense that sexual abuse does not play a part in the orientation process.
gays4jesus: Again, using case example of molestation is like saying a disease that effect 1 millionth population should have a full half of a hospital devoted to that disease in all hospitals. But molestation is so popular in homophobia it will be treated as a major factor. Your brother hates men mainly because of 700 years of Church conditioning. St. Augustine who own a concubine and sold her to marry a wealthy aristocrat began making sex sin. This became a major part of Christianity ever since. (above is more complex than my short explanation here). Women are raped with high % rates yet though some hate men most marry men in spite of being raped by one.
Well, that is a lot to respond to for one message. Whether or not we agree totally, or at all, is not a reason for us not to demonstrate the love of Christ for one another and to hold each other up in prayer. My prayers are for you, not against you. I pray only for the peace of Christ to overwhelm you and over flow into the lives of those you love and influence.
gays4jesus: In your message here to me you really never gave your own thoughts on really anything. I can't tell if you are pro or con gays is sin or not. Paramount no hint to any specific verse that is used to condemn gays or positive verse that are positive towards gays. Though you listed Rom. 18-32 reference. I answered more based on making the point "gay is not sin"
Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you and hope we can learn from one another and grow in our faith as a result.
gays4jesus: Yes, next time be more specific on your questions as I like to get to the nity gridy. The truth sets you free lies keeps you in bondage. You can tell by the message. Homophobes do give truth but heaps weights on the innocent ones. Seek to lift those weights by representing truth with research and study both sides. Bible words and History is not changeable and so wishing and guessing is not an option to truth. If gay were sin then presenting documents on "sodomite" proving it is not "male temple prostitutes" is paramount to one showing a gay person the Bible condemns gays. If you can only find sodomite is a male temple prostitute you have to eliminate from the 14 verses leaving now with 7 verses to prove. I love truth and so Christian say this also, so truth should be out mutual goal.
In Christ,
Jason
Reply:
·
