Tuesday, April 13, 2010

Three ways a person becomes homosexual

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MissedTheMark’s reply and my comments to them:

Re: Signs does not mean you are a Christian (According to Jesus; Matthew 7:15-23) 
Sorry that I havent responded sooner. Ive been kind of busy, but thank you for posting my comments on your blog, because I think these ideas that we talk about need to go public so people can read and think for themselves.

Gays4jesus: I agree

(I wanted to give you a pointer. When I was reading some of this, it was hard to understand what type of point you were making. You would make a point and then you make another that had nothing to do with it. You jumped from point to point. They were rabbit trails and I began to ignore them because I had no idea what you were talking about. Try to stick on the point so you dont lose your readers attention, thanks ;)

Gays4jesus: Sorry you has a hard time, but I don’t apologize for my style of answering those that make comments of send email to me. I simply answer each commented phrasal topic one at a time. If it seems to go off subject it is still part of that phrasal comment. I am not answering you as a individual, but as a representative of homophobes and the inner meaning portrayed by a comment that is universal anti-gay doctrine. My point is not to make sense to you but to get people to think about what they say. For example it is far from new about thinking these type talks should go public. I have been public with these talks for 3 ½ decades. So your comment assume it is a new idea. Again I only know you as a homophobe (no offense, just a fact). Show me you are more by showing you found answers that are based in materials with meat in them then I can respond to you more than a stereotype homophobe.
In the beginning of your response you put out a couple of scriptures. I firmly agree with all of those verses, God DOES love the world. There is no doubt about that. I think the problem we have, especially in the west, is our concept of love. The word love has been redefined through the ages, spanning through different cultures and then winding up in 21st century America. I think the real issue here is, what is Gods version of the word love, since He is the real author and creator of the concept love, not Websters dictionary. In 1 John, it says that God IS love, meaning that the character of God himself IS the definition of love. The idea of love has been distorted through the years and has been changed, contrary to the character of God. So, who is God? God defines himself, we dont define Him, and God best defines himself in Exodus. 
Exodus 34:5-7

Gays4jesus: You got my beginning 100% mis-interpreted. Try to remember you said “Do you believe that homosexuality is not a sin because a person who is homosexual heals somebody, in Jesus' name? and Do actually believe that because the Holy Spirit works through people, then it would imply that it justifies their lifestyle?” and so I quoted what I believed plain and simple. PLEASE I have been in the Assemblies of God for 36 years, you did not come to me to talk Christian shop. I did not just sit in the pews I did the homework and I am not interested in talking shop unless you first get a handle of gay is not sin or show details how you get gay is sin in to the Bible.

The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD. Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations. 
God proclaims His total character to Moses and Gods character is paradoxical. God proclaims Himself to be one who is full of mercy and compassion, and shows that it takes a lot for him to get angry. Then at the same time Gods character shows that He can become angry and that He is a righteous judge and will punish the guilty, if they remain guilty. 
The problem in our modern version of love, we only see the first part of God, the compassion and mercy, but we dont put the character of being Just in love. God has ALWAYS embodied this total character in Exodus. Hebrews 13:8 says, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Malachi 3:6 says, For I, the Lord, do not change 
Us Christians, in the west, many times redefine God into our version, the way we want him to be for us, and that DOES NOT work. A lot of times we will only focus on characteristics of God that appeals to us, but we ignore the characteristics of God that we dont like. By doing that, we create for ourselves a Mr. Potato Head God. The thing is, God defines Himself, we dont define Him. 
The next scripture you put was Romans 10:9, which is a completely valid scripture that I fully agree with. The problem is, of course, the way we interpret it. What does Jesus say in Luke 13:3, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. So, whats the deal hear? Jesus said to the woman about to be stoned in John 8:12, Neither do I condemn you; GO AND SIN NO MORE. That last part usually gets left out, by many Christians. In other words, true confession of Jesus being the savior in Romans 10:9 will have repentance showing as the fruit of it.

Gays4jesus: Same stuff you are playing like a pastor of an evangelists, sorry, but you came to me as a homophobe and it is inappropriate to talk about doctrine just yet.
James 2:19-24 says, You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 
The moral of the story is that real faith produces an action, not just a confession, so Paul is right in Romans 10:9, but the way many interpret it is wrong. That is why we interpret scripture with scripture.

Gays4jesus: Ditto
Moving on I did grow up in the Assemblies of God Church, I left the denomination about 8 years ago. I loved it and the people, but as a charismatic church, it still was very religious and organized. Still, there was not a lot of room for the Holy Spirit to move, even though they claimed to let the Spirit move. It was more like a show of emotion. There were miracles here and there, everyone speaking in tongues, but there were hardly any major changes of the heart. We had families that were falling apart in the church, people falling into sin, and lives that were not being fixed, but when it came to the meetings, everyone had smiles on their faces, they danced around and praised God. But when they would leave, they would go back to being negative and depressed. In other words, the evidence of supernatural manifestations does not mean that everything is all right or that God approves of the way we think or live life.

Gays4jesus: Sorry for your disillusionment with the AOGs, but gonna be hard to find any mainline denomination all peachy keen so, bad as any church can become you will find me standing up for them before I side as it were with one that simply leaves a church disillusioned and off condemning them based on saying they sin. YOU ARE SINNING DAILY YOURSELF so don’t judge another’s sins without recognizing you are saved by Grace not because you are more righteous than they. I believe Christianity is in the right place at the right time behaving as prophesied in ancient days. In these days we are to be restorers not accusers. I may sound condemning, but care to spend time with me you will see my point is the same, to get Christians to think and to ready them to come back when God send his restorers out to urge them back to the fold. Just because you can’t understand or see me jumping around does not mean I am randomly speaking jargon. My interests does not lie with today but with tomorrow. I see a picture and I speak to what I see and that is the coming days and the great falling away. I will rattle on and on seeming off topic, homophobes are great tolls to get the message out, They offer opportunity for others to speak up that may be in silence. You are a tool I use of course I’d rather you be a co-partner, but this can’t be until you see, but you see 650 million gays going to hell and so you aim your message off course. How can you partner with these last days when you can’t see your hand in front of your faced. I know you do not understand it is jargon to you today.
Im sure that everything you tell me is true about you being healed and God using you to do signs and wonders. I absolutely have no doubt about that. God can use anyone when they use the name of Jesus, EVEN NON- BELIEVERS. Case-in-point: When I was in Malawi, I was walking back to my lodge where I was staying. A man came up to me and asked me if I would like to buy phone cards. I told him, No thanks. He said to me, Well, you were at the bank the other day and you said you would buy some later. I thought to myself, I was at the bank the other day and that does sound like something I would say. I proceeded to tell him that I was not interested, but I said to him, I can pray for ya? He didnt look very interested at all, but then he finally told me that he had a sister in the hospital that was about to die with malaria. I felt God tell me to pray for his faith. And I told him, Go to your sister, put your hand on her and say, In the name of Jesus, be healed! Well, he didnt look to happy about that. So, we departed. Two days later, Im walking down the street and I hear the words, Friend, friend! I turn and look and I see this guy (Lawrence his name). He says to in an excited tone, My sister, my sister! Shes walking around! Shes leaving the hospital today! I said to him, You prayed in Jesus name? He said, Yes, I did and now she has no more malaria and is leaving the hospital today! I even had this on video because I had my video with me. He later said to me, I NOW BELIEVE THERE IS A GOD.

Gays4jesus:Ths is the type of sickness homophobes force themselves to wallow . Miracles happen, but instead of praise God And vin Glory to him you use it as a means to further your condemnation of gays via hey gay is sin so it can’t be anything except God loves everyone and yep he does heal them. Did you care to ask the details of those healings I received? Nope. Did it magically happen, did a Christian walk by and zap me? What was I doing that brought on this healing did you bother to ask? Nope all you do is be the UFO skeptic or the documentary trying to say the Samarians had the FLOOD story before Moses so Moses got it from them. Hey Moses got it str8 from GOD wake up. Main point is homophobes avoid gay testimonies so they can condemn using no foundation. You can hide a lot of truth from yourself in ignorance.
You see, the important thing to understand here is that miracles, signs and wonders dont validate our position in God or in the world, miracles, signs and wonders validate the validity of God to humanity. It is either causing the non-believe to believe He is real, or its causing the believer to have their faith increased. But even if the non-believer or the believe sees a miracle, that still doesnt mean they will follow God, because they still have a Will. There are people who know God exists, but would rather live life on their terms. That is fine. At least they are honest. There are some who know God exists, and live for God, but only on their terms. By doing that, they deceive themselves thinking they are living for God, when they actually arent. Again, Matthew 7 God cannot see our sin unless the person is in Christ. And being in Christ, is through faith (repentance). We cant let ourselves be deceived by doing works for God, and thinking that our works for God is enough for our salvation. Our righteousness is like filthy rags to God, scripture says. Salvation only comes to the one who believes they are a sinner, in need of a savior. If they act on that thought with repentance, than Jesus blood atones for their sins.

Gays4jesus: How easy for you to toss 36 years walking with Jesus in the trash can. Mind as you correspond with me you are talking to someone that love Jesus and I never missed anything in my church. This means quality time with pastors and congregations (this is shortened because it includes quality as a job taking groups to other denominations as well) It includes over 200 pastors prophesying over me usually followed at the same time was a couple others adding word from God over me. Not going to detail what was said but it was very good and most has come to pass. Point here is you are off the skeptic path of doubting it possible a gay Christian can have any sort of str8 Christian relationship with God. If you use your attempt to use we can buy God’s favor. I did not do anything more than have no other condition for God except that if he were truth I would accept him. When I said that to him within 1 ½ months I was saying the sinner’s prayer at an altar. To this day I don’t see why God blesses me ( I am not here going into the blessings and miracles) I don’t do things for God based on what I can get or earn. I do them because he is who he said he is. Homophobes just needs something to explain for them the blessings away.
Acts 2:38 has peter preaching the gospel. The people ask a question, Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said to them, REPENT, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Repent simply means, a lifestyle of turning from your fleshly desires and turning your desires towards God, which is an ongoing process.

Gays4jesus: You are telling str8 out that when you feel love for an opposite sex (to help you understand I mean as in as your concept a marriage to be) it is fleshly desire so you should turn from it? Because if you are implying gay love of this fashion is your freshly desire then str8s are in constant fleshly desire. I know you are playing the pastor, but I already told you I heard sermons up the ying yang so stop the milk and get with the meat.

When I was talking about my struggles in Africa, my point was this. If I kept on living a lifestyle in which I was doing sin on a regular basis, in which, I stopped turning from my fleshly desires, then I would, of course, be in danger of rejected Gods grace. Yes, we have allowance to sin, but if it is an ongoing thing, then we choose to reject God. God will still do miracles through us, just like in Matthew 7, because His name has its own power and will be proclaimed to all, but in the end have to answer to God for our personal lives and actions. 
Hebrews 10:26-31says, If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the TRUTH, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Gays4jesus: You have a real hateful heart towards gays don’t you as you on and on try to imply gays simply do not repent which means to you become str8 or stop sex. And yes indeed God will indeed visits the sins of the Church as individual sins are forgiven, Church wide sins are not and the day is set in stone (1260 days) to answer the prayers of the innocent ones persecuted by the Church.

This was not a passage from the Old Testament. This is a New Testament passage after the death of Christ. Bush, father Bush 
(Side point) When you said, There is a demon behind every bush is only true in regards to grandfather Bush, father Bush, and son Bush, Were you trying to be insulting to the George Bush family? If you were, thats really petty and does not display the fruit of the Holy Spirit in a person. Again, the fruit of the spirit, shows the evidence of Holy Spirit living in a person, not, the gifts of the Spirit. Im not a big George Bush, fan, but I wont be insulting to the man whether I agree or disagree with him.

Gays4jesus:Not petty at all when you know the details of their intent to make the one world government come to pass. They all are 33rd degree Masons, father Bush was on the original Majestic 12 he has the highest secret clearance called Majestic. This is 17 steps above what most presidents are allowed to have. The Bush family does not have much good to offer Christians. It is their intent to kill as many as possible. This does not make Clinton an angel, there in league with each other for the same goals. Remember I told you I have been on TV since 1985 and I talk about the coming last days probably 50/50 and most the time mixed together with gay is not sin. (I talk on many issues, those are the main topics) I know my topics, I know AOG’s take on it and other denominations. I am happy to change as more info comes and is revealed, but I do know what I am talking about and the Bushes are about as evil as rulers can get. Just having a philosophy of disagreeing with him is pretty damaging to Church welfare since they along with other leadership has put together what do with Believers as the times start.
About the seven sons of sceva, you missed the point. The point was, regardless if you were Christian or not, a person could cast out demons if they used the name of Jesus. The seven sons of sceva were casting out demons, but then ran in to a really power demon. Point is, THEY WERE CASTING OUT DEMONS; NON-CHRISTIANS. I know of a Christian pastor who once was a high Wiccan priest and a member of the church of Satan. He said they just to cast out evil spirits out of houses, and when it became difficult they would use the name Jesus and it would work. Why do you think God would do that? Because the name of Jesus was being used. There is power in the name of Jesus, not in the person.

Gays4jesus: Didn’t miss the point at all. If you really want to talk about demon stuff you came to the right person, but not in this response today. Keep in mind Glory is to God I will not glorify demons as you are unawares doing so.
When I gave you Matthew 7 the point of that scripture was saying that one does not judge them self to be saved because signs, wonders and healings are done through them. The people in the passage deceived themselves. You said that people who believe that homosexuality is a sin, but I dont care how many miracles or healings God has done through you, it still does not justify that homosexuality is not sin. Youve been the one deceived. You want to come out to my church and try to convince us that youre not by us laying hands on you? Im not saying that you have a demon, but one thing Ive learned from deliverance is that a demon does not have to leave or even manifest itself if the person is locked in their sin. If a person is holding on to their sin, that demon has legal rights to stay, and you can try and cast the demon out all day and NOTHING will happen. Ive experienced this before.

Gays4jesus: Again, only the assumption, no verses or explanations of how you get gays into those verses you just assume it is there. You always quick to assume what I am thinking. Again, my challenge is not for me to come lay hands on anyone or all in your church, but it is that you your pastor and your congregation would demonstrate how gay is sin in all that you know in Christ Jesus and whatever you feel appropriate. I also don’t care how many miracles I received or how many answered prayers I have, it is my testimony and it is up to you to explain how it is happening. So far you reject my testimony, so what, this does not make me run to you for deliverance of what you believe about gays. It just shows me your hatred blinds you to the facts. Finally the Church accepted the Earth went around the Sun. You are not there yet. And again want to play with demons? You are guessing. You are hoping, you are trusting in blind faith. Truth can’t help you in a real demon confrontation because you are not acknowledging the processes that makes them fear the name of Jesus. But once again, this writing here today is not about demons, if you want maybe I will talk about them with you, but how can I if you maintain your love for a lie?

Question where do you live? Why dont you have me come to your ministry or your churches and let me speak to them and pray over your sick. I would love to..

Gays4jesus: You got it completely backwards, you are the condemner and so in fairness to you should have all the aces up your sleeve. Reversing my challenge doesn’t work. Beside you are not qualified. You are a tool that I am using to get a broader message out. You are not a pastor and so can’t accept my challenge http://s91536390.onlinehome.us/gaysforjesus/challenge.htm .I 100% believe me by myself with Jesus with me is enough to show you gay is not sin on a pure spiritual note alone. I rather doubt anything I say will make a dent in your hatred of gays. I also know anything, prayer, operation in the Holy Spirit, message or anything you can bring up as fact will show to anyone anything more than status quo, might as well stayed home nothing new. My point of this sort of challenge is to break through to God to reveal gay is not sin. Since I believe strongly you won’t listen to any words I say that it will be only in the SPIRIT. Now this type of way of operating is not for healings and getting baptized in the Holy Spirit of other nice comfy cozy Spiritual move of God, but it is more in line with you won’t listen so what has to be done. Personally I cannot do anything. But I know enough about Jesus with me and what he has shown me that your congregation won’t be the same ever again once it becomes my turn at bat. I have no idea what I will say or do, I will not plan anything. I told you I was generally AOG so this is mainly done to comfort you in that I am not a freakish bazaar Christian cult involving some scary occultist practice. I will leave it with what did God do when people of God defied his messengers? Did he heal their wounds? My hope would be you would invite me to hear what God has shown me for these last days, this usually would mean time for praises and healings and other cool things ion the presence of the Lord that we are more accustom to.
EX-GAY MINISTRIES: I dont agree with some ex-gay ministries, but there are some that are really good helping homosexuals. The problem with some of the ministries is that they are trying to turn them from gay to straight. Thats not smart. The effective ministries know that it is not their sexual preference that needs to change, but their perspective. A homosexual, like anyone else needs to be shown what real love is, and that it has nothing to do with sex or preferring a physical appearance. Once the person begins to understand the love of the father, then their mind changes and they begin to no longer let the physical preference run their lives. Jesus begins to distract them and He becomes more appealing than anything physical. Real love is not based on sight, but on God and the heart.

Gays4jesus: Sorry but as usual you are very lacking in info. You are not the expert in ex-gay ministries here, it is you that needs to ask questions not assume. Where were you when Exodus International began? (1972) I lived a couple blocks away from Melody land where it began at the time it began. I was well into seeking info about truth. I know their founders history do you? I had on my TV programs several times an authority of a lady that worked with the famous San Francisco ex-gay ministry. Tell me your facts. Do they comes from following the ex-gays for decades after their attendance in ex-gay ministries? Bet your sources are homophobic in nature (not going to detail this unless you want to talk about ex-gays specifically in another topic sometime)but you are wishing effectiveness based on lies, try Family and Friends of Lesbians and gays, many time larger than the ex-gay movement and started about the same time. There are website that claim more ex ex-gay members than all the ex-gay ministries combined. I personally interviewed a number of ex-gay leaders. I got my homework done on them, do you?
Using your example with Brant Baker, dont you see? IT DOESNT MATTER IF THEY DID SIGNS, WONDERS, AND HEALINGS! Matthew 7 says there will be people who are going to hell that did signs, wonders and healings. You and I do not know where Brant Baker is, despite what people close to him say. God knew the inner chambers of his heart, and knew if Brant loved God or his own sin, more. I know plenty of people in the church today who struggle with homosexuality, and sexuality, in general. My best friend was in the gay lifestyle; my girlfriend was into lesbianism for a short time, until she met Jesus. Her friend came to our church 3 weeks ago who came out of the lesbian lifestyle and is completely in love with the Lord. My other friend, 55 years old; I brought to church Wednesday. He as well, came out of the gay lifestyle. I absolutely love that man. He has been such a good friend to me. He doesnt have a family, but my family has been his family. He actually lives with my mom and stepdad.

Gays4jesus: So easy for a homophobe to condemn someone without ever seeing any of their services. But hey how ironic (though you are not relating to my comment on it) 2 gays are the founders of the modern charismatic style of worship and healing services. Bottom line Isn’t God wonderful to use what you hate to bring him Glory.
First of all, let me say that Brant Baker did not invent any style with faith healing. It started long before him with William Branham, Oral Roberts, Jake Coe, and A.A. Allan. And even further back with Charles Parham and William Seymour.

Gays4jesus:I said they are the roots of the modern way of Spiritual Christian worship. Healings had been going on and various styles. Try to remember I am 63 today certainly too young to know Azusa street revival for sure, but old enough to have been to many faith healing ministries, most some guy sat on a stage and made legs longer, others and bit more worshippy but there were no faith healing rallies as we know it tell Kathryn Kaulman, this is a huge world so you could find plenty over the last 2000 to one degree or another, but I am talking our modern version style owe it to 2 gays. Oral Robert is your example of I healed in your name. I read many of Orals books, but oral is a 33rd degree Mason flat out, this makes him 100% part of antichrist kingdom period. In the early 1900s Masons came to realize or their plan timing came to be and they began working on the USA, buying up banks and so forth, one thing they already had many in Europe’s church as 33rd degree as it were Christian leaders, so it was time to get this in the USA. Their plan was to get many household name preachers as 33rd degree in position. Big part of their plan was to seat Sunday school teachers in many churches. So you are right they said Lord Lord and he said I never knew you. Brant was the modern era of what I like to call it “Pentecostalism” but to my dismay as it were an more non-Christian word came to the forefront which was “charismatic” anyone can be “charismatic” satan in antichrist will be quite “charismatic” . But what can I say word evolve “charismatic I can use reluctantly when I want to say Pentecostal. Nevertheless Baker and Frisbee brought us what you like about worshipping God today. Accept that or not.
You mentioned Lonnie Frisbee. The guy struggled, not just homosexuality, but an insatiable sexual appetite. His own brother stated that he was raped at 8 years old. Youve got to understand that many people who are Pentecostal/ charismatic struggle with closet sins, adultery, fornication, crime,. These people have seen and done many miracles. Heck!! I struggle with pornography for a good 6 or 7 years, and God was doing miracles through me at the time.

Gays4jesus: Shame on you just go for source you agree with inside of seeing both sides of the story and searching out the facts. Every Christian was lost once and most still hint around to some sort of mysterious awful sin. Perhaps what is awful to them is just running a red light. You give an arch killer more leeway than a gay person. So strange rapist, killers, deep into drugs and worst you happily accept their conversions. What is this? Hmm let us see, they really are committing a bad way of life and look see what happens when they accept Jesus, they change humph? Strange huh. Lets look at the obvious and not at those that have to go the harder route of recovery. Stop smoking, sotp drinking, stop, killing, stop raping, stop aulterying, (opps guess we have to leave that out too many Christians keep adultering)in other words well accept bad behavior that is provable in so many ways science life destruction, Hebrew Greek words and culture and Bible clarity that no matter how deep you study it still comes up with its bad. Funny though some have troubles generally we universally accept these change pretty early on in a new born’s life. But hey let’s check out the gays, hmmm they don’t change to str8 And those going to ex-gay ministries are provably not changed when you do decades of follow-ups on them and they have lies at every breath. Look at you into porn poor thing. Sinning against your body huh or heh heh its sinning against the Temple of God because your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost right? In history tons of porn, it was very well known. Pompeii is covered in porn on so many of their walls. I did 2 TV programs in Pompeii myself. Well I do not condone blatant porn as it were, but fact is it was rampant and not a new things because paper is easy to get and now cameras etc. Sorry I just won’t get condemning about porn. With so much blatant porn in Jesus’ day why is the Bible nearly mute on the topic, takes good imagination to get the Bible making a lot to do with porn. Sex issues started in the Vatican not the Bible. We are condition that anything out of the missionary position is sin, porn is out of missionary position. No matter what you say you sneak guilt into anything sexual, not because your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit but because of the Vatican.
The thing is, if I had come to a place of justifying my sin, then I would be treading in dangerous waters. It doesnt mean the miracles would stop, but my salvation could be in jeopardy. There were times that I thought I was born with a sexual addiction because I tried a million times to quit. I began to feel that God created me with the struggle, but I later realized, like anything else, that repentance is an ongoing process. And whether or not I succeed in stopping it, Im to always be with the true intention of fighting it, even till the day I day. But one thing for sure is to never come to a place of justifying ones own sin.

Gays4jesus: How many outright murderers get physical healing? Do other adamant law breakers walk in the presence of the Lord Jesus daily? Do people selling weapons to terrorists stop off at church for healing? Do they start worshipping the Lord bring his presence in? My meaning is the true evil sinner are not abounding in any blessings. Yes great deliverance stories abound at those that come out of that kind of darkness but blessing they did not have as they lived that life. Luck, power money might kept them for a season. They do not justify anything they do, they just kill rape and pillage. Those the come to Jesus come by way of being drawn to him by the Holy Spirit. Once they accept Jesus they are changed. We all will sin every day till we die. You are saying porn is sin (I don’t say it is not sin)and yet you are saved. This seems to convince you sinners can be blessed even as they sin because you enjoy porn at times. Christian ordinary sins won’t prevent blessing and miracles and should their sins be corruption then one day their kingdom will crash down as we see often enough on TV. Had you thought it through you would figure out God made you have hornyness as part of being human, Yes we can say this insurance propagation which it sure did right? But hornyness is not a choice it is biochemistry that can be set off by many things. You just aren’t going to win a battle against a God created feature of humans. But because of the Vatican around 900AD we get the conditioning the any sort of sex is sin even correct sex whatever that is. We call it Bible but it is not it is Vatican period. Already talked about marriage today is not Bible Marriage it is 12th century pagan marriage.
Now, dealing with Romans 1 You can try and make this as complicated as you like, but God intended the comprehension of this scripture for lay people, without any scholarly knowledge. What you are basically saying to me is that we cant understand this scripture unless scholarship is used. Well, that sounds like the rest of the unenlightened world is screwed, unless they have internet access to look it up. And we can also throw in the ignorance of 95% of historys unschooled, world population, from the 1st century, up until the 21st century.

Gays4jesus: I don’t try to make it complicated. In Paul’s day it was common knowledge about pagan fertility temples on every street corner. Cybele was known as the mother of the gods. What is amazing is you continue to make Bible days like today and it is not. In Bible days they lived the customs of Judaism and they were ruled by the Roman empire full of fertility temples. Why it is more complex today is because we are 2000 years away from it. Today we are forced to study to know what certain verses mean. Vatican sealed up many of your doctrines so tight it is going to take calamity to break you of false doctrines so my words are meaningless to you unless you want to break loose form your conditionings. Paul knew Hebrew men were often going to fertility male temple prostitutes. This should be a no brainer for Christians, but for you burning in lust sound so gay to you, you can’t possibly think gays love each other like you love your wife (if you are married) maybe you aren’t married so don’t fully understand love yet. You go to church to hear the pastor preach WHY because he should have gone to some Bible college and so learned a lot about what? Bible days. You have heard tons of sermons and love it especially as the pastor details actual Bible days. It is almost non-stop on the history channel even CNN has specials going into depths about Bible days trying to get to the truth of those days and the meaning of the verses. Why can you love the teaching of your pastor’s detail about Paul’s day as he explains what the feast means and much more detail on Greek/Hebrew words and customs. You soak in all this and what they tell you is how you can better understand what you read. Because no pastor almost would dare do likewise concerning gays does not make it automatically your conditioning is right about gays. So when you so love to condemn 650 million gays to death without hope in God you can do it without conscious because you don’t have to study after all the Bible should be easy. You get closer to Jesus by learning about him. The Bible is very very very complex, most is plenty easy to understand, God so loved the word kind of thing, A NO BRAINER HE LOVES US ALL. God tells us to study to show ourselves approved of him.
Romans 1:18-2:16 is very simple to understand. Verse 18 introduces the subject that is used, intermittently, all the way to Romans 2:16. Paul is being philosophical referring to the natural of the carnal, unsaved human; the human that rejects God and goes his or her own way. That is why Paul says, in a broad, opening statement, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (v. 18), referring to all humanity that opposes God. Paul states that the natural of mankind knows of the existence of God, but suppress the truth, of that existence of God (v. 18). From verse 18 to 23 Paul is simply explaining mankinds characteristics when living in rebellion from God. In verse 24, God is giving the people over to what theyve already had in their heart. God did not cause them to have degrading passions, they already had them. Paul was just stating that God opposes the two people of the same gender engaging in sexual contact. NEVER ONCE, did Paul say that God opposes two people of the same gender loving each other. He only pointed out that the sexual contact was wrong. And by the way, love is not sex, and sex is not love.

Gays4jesus:Nature and natural are used very differently today and ever since science took roots in our moderner day. Above you do not explain what God gave who over to. You do not explain why is simple. All unrighteousness and just how did it get so narrowed down to be the main verse in all the Bible to condemn gays? They THEY people KNEW God. They were not unbelievers. “All ungodliness” come one start presenting your ungodliness about gays. Only thing you got is they love each other like str8 love each other. This is your all ungodliness? Where are the gays that oppose GOD? Oh I get it they oppose God because they love each other like you love your spouse. “each other” means like Stephan and me love each other and been together for 20 years now. Nature and natural means seed and instinct means if gay were talked about in the verse they first had to love str8 sex because the instinct they went against was str8. 650 million gays again thing, where are the they loved str8 sex stuff? You say so clear but if it is so clear answer my questions. So God gave them over, so you are saying these str8s that loved str8 sex somehow actually had gay sex in mind so God let them go for it? Simple you say yes you are right 650 million people simple, gays did not love str8 sex and did have str8 sex (always exceptions for many reasons, were talking most gays not exceptions that have explanations in detail) they discovered young in life they were gay at almost no persuasion by any outside force that they were gay. Degrading passion to you means the romance movies from the imaginations of str8 as they attempt to create on screen true str8 love meaning true str8 love is this bliss you call being with the spouse you love generally called a marriage that if gays do this same romancing and love stuff with all the frills that chokes you up in tears of joy at the touching scenes that every relates to a how romantic an touching love story wish it were mine even when you are married you seek that you have this sort of love life and is your ideal of str8 sex and love, but if gays do this exact behavior you so love then you say it is degrading passion. Tell me are you married (I will assume you are and if you are not you relate to it anyway) Can you love your wife but not have any sort of sex with her? It seem you can accept the false doctrine of no sex even if you have such love for someone. Oh how sweet of you, Something you cannot do and would never tell a str8 person to do you easily tell a gay couple to abstain. Why didn’t you go into verse 28-32 is that too difficult to explain? You know the list of evil deeds that all as you are saying gays has to be doing because this is something God ordained into their behaviors to do all this list publicly. I told you before I am sure, Gays behave about as opposite as you can get to verse 28-32 prove me wrong.
So back to the scripture Basically, verse 24-28 is pointing out that God LETS Mankind become as corrupt as they desire to. Im not saying that Paul is systematically showing the process of a person starting out from bad to worse, because it speaks of all the general sins from verses 29-31. Those general sins didnt come after homosexuality. And we both know that murder started with Cain, before the world began to grow. Cain never worshipped any idol or image (At least before murdering abel). Paul is talking in a very general manner. Never once did he even refer to the Roman culture in any of the chapters. The book of Romans itself is just basic systematic theology with philosophy. Hes not pointing out specifics except a little in is introduction. The overall point he is driving out through the whole book is of Righteousness by faith alone. That is why Romans 1:17 completely sets the stage for the rest of the chapter and the whole book. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.". Then Paul goes into the picture of what the unrighteous man lives by starting in verse 18.

Gays4jesus: So gays are getting so corrupt, even though they are abundant in the health care system and medical profession saving your lives and keeping you comfy you call this corrupt behaviors. Hmmm so you are even saying gays were bad to start already behaving 28-32 before verse 18 right? Please please please 650 million gays come on now show me evil gays. Yes there are bad gays, but they are really hard to find in the 650 million gays worldwide At least try to show me where to find these evil gays.. Where I work I often am the only manager which would have store manager power practically in a very large store, I guess to be trusted to hold keys and combos and authority to make any decisions in the absence of a more hire ranking manager one has to be very evil and corrupt. (by the way a miracle story behind how I got to be in this position). Romans 1:18-32 is a story and you can’t pick and choose how it fits together and yes it is a lead in, but it is a story and is a standalone story in its own right. All you did in talking about Romans is in your mind use the concept of nasty evil lusty sexualness as confirming to you gay is sin. I ask how do you get real gays into that story and all you did is the same you assume because it sounds like the participators are men having sex with each other you just assume it means gays. I was planning a trip to Greece and would have gone to the temple Paul went in and even spoke in, it had over 1000 temple prostitutes. And you really think on Paul’s mind was that gay couple he saw in the market place inspired him to condemn all gays. Well fact, we have no evidence whatsoever of any kind that Paul directly went to any places where gays might be. Many believe gay was not an issue of any sort with Hebrew of Roman empire, but still no outright mention and it takes considerable research to come up with the real gays of Paul’s day. As it turns out they were there just was not an issue with Christians or pagans. At issues were all the fertility temple Hebrew men went to. This is the ongoing theme of the Bible and historical documents. Gays found in history are not spoken evil of till the Vatican invented the antigay doctrine which nearly word for word you have been conditioned to. Very few Christians are documented to speak against gays prior to that Vatican decree. The documentation is that most Christians condemn those few that were against gays in some fashion, it is also known those pre-Vatican doctrine Christians are not documented to be using know verses to condemn gays.
Temple prostitution makes absolutely no sense for Paul to write about in this passage when he is being philosophical. I dont doubt that there was male temple prostitution, because there was, in many cultures. And there was normal prostitution everywhere. There is absolutely no reason for Paul to point out male, temple prostitution, especially when he starts out by condemning lesbianism and mentions male homosexuality second. And just for your information, women did not work in the temple. So if Paul is referring to male, temple prostitutes, why is he mentioning and starting with lesbianism? (Thats a rhetorical question, but you can attempt to answer if you like, but try to stay in context with the text itself, and try to avoid outside sources)

Gays4jesus: You say he was talking about lesbian, I am telling the FACTs which you reject, you rejecting what I am telling does not make these facts non-existent. Deut 23:17 uses the words for female and male temple prostitutes. These were in the fertility temple of Moses’s day and Paul’s day. These sort of temple which I have told you were on every street corner and it is a fact Paul knew Hebrew men did go to these male temple prostitutes and to a lesser degree the female temple prostitutes. You denying these facts is what makes no sense at all. The text itself detail orgy like sexual acts they do not describe a one on one relationship of 2 people in love. How you can get orgies to mean a way to condemn gays is senseless. We have the ruins of many temples some still have carved in stone on about every square inch inside and out orgies and every sort of sex position and male to male, male to female, female to female and every sort of possible combination. Yes Paul was quite familiar with Hebrew men going to these other gods and ritual orgy rooms. Now there are tons of documented research into this it is not something based in wishes and guesses. You inserted the word lesbian, the Bible says an orgy like behaviors coupled with to other gods.
The gay pastors are using wishful thinking on this one. It is such a stretch that it is almost laughable. And to be honest, it doesnt stand to reason because it is so completely out of context to interpret this passage that way, which is why nobody, in the church, takes the male, temple prostitution argument serious. And again, it just shows desperation on the part of the gay Christian community to do and say whatever to appease their conscience.

Gays4jesus: One of the first authors of books showing gay is not sin was a str8 Pentecostal woman. She wrote several books. Now as for your wish that “gay pastors) are wishing with a bias and trying to show Bible. It is not that simple these as you say “gay pastors” are not magically pastors. They are credentialed in the many denominations. They are a varied as any Christians denomination and independent churches as there are. They cover Adventist and Mormons, Baptists and Pentecostal, Catholic and every shape and form of Christianity. They get their credentials as any str8 pastors and most from accredited otherwise str8 Bible colleges and the like. MCC is not a denomination as such as from any specific denomination. So it is up for grabs the pastor’s background however, they have grown so big as to now include requirement of going to MCC Bible training. Some are as expert as you can get in Bible knowledge and education some from the best colleges, my point is gay pastors are not a fly by night pop up with no pop up blocker to manage them. MCC founded by a Four Square Pentecostal Pastor. In the beginning it was the late 40s a psychologists who worked with many colleagues with mentally sick gays ( but huh? In those days all gays were mentally sick right?) She happened to have several gay friends she hung out with and knew them well. How well adjusted in life they in spite of Christian persecution. As time went on and she went to work treat mentally sick gays (meaning these gays were nearly whacko and the brink of suicide and truly believed what was said about them and were at last call of anything representing sanity). Well she was becoming confused and wondered why her gay friend were not even close to the ones just was treating. She had opportunity to see many gays because of her several friends, long story short she began her own research into healthy gays as it appeared. She began to see her work with her colleagues was not reflecting real gays but really sick gays who actually need mental help but in those days the help was you are a sick pervert so we do all sort of things 9today we would condemn) in trying to get them street as it were. She was the first to start what led to today’s acceptance that gays are normal productive people medically and therapedicly speaking. I did not make this up. You know you have to condemn findings that is accepted by a long history showing you can’t say its wrong scientifically. All you can do is say see how the world grows evil as it pronounces a clean bill of health on gays. It is not what appeases anyone’s conscious, but what tons of research presented as facts. Likewise it is not desperation to show findings that phrases in Jesus’ day like “born eunuchs” means simply gays. You can reject the studies showing nothing to back up why you reject something that is so well documented professionally with the sources of the resource materials. In Jesus’ day they did have words and phrases for gays in Greek. They had at least 9 Greek words that fits closer to modern gays. So Paul was not without words for regular gays.
Now, let me say this... The homosexual community has been an area where my heart has been to minister. Ive talked to and counseled homosexuals from all different age ranges. There have been a lot of things God has shown me about the subject that I think the typical evangelical church misses. I dont think that rape and prostitution is the reason why people are homosexual, but in some cases, yes. In most cases though, it is different. I remember, 6 years ago talking to a 15 year old boy who was struggling with homosexual feelings. At the same time, he wanted to walk with God, but he knew what the bible said. He felt depressed and suicidal. I knew that many homosexuals have been and are in this same position. My heart went out to the kid and I dont him about the love of God and of the personal struggles Ive had in my past. It really encouraged the boy.

Gays4jesus: It is so amazing to me that in 2010AD people can still use sick tormented gays as examples gay is sin. Had gays really been on your heart you should have done research. Generally I assume gays you know came to your church for help. You did not counsel from all different ranges of gays you counseled from a small segment that has specific traits. “to a 15 year old boy who was struggling with homosexual feelings. At the same time, he wanted to walk with God, but he knew what the bible said. He felt depressed and suicidal. I knew that many homosexuals have been and are in this same position.” Struggling is an important word because it almost always is in the rhetoric of gays that believe gay is sin based on their church background. “Suicidal” typical of those that take steps to become clients of ex-gay ministries. “many homosexuals”? Where? Who? HOW? Again, I research ex-gay ministries in their infancy and beyond. 1972 -1974 is the dates of the first ex-gay movement. By mid 80s and early 90s online had developed to where you can find in the neighbor of 200 ex-gay ministries. I read through 100% of their webpages. I got detailed testimonies in those days of over 100 ex-gay leaders. Included were also Pentecostals. Like the story about the woman that was treating gays first believing all gays were mentally sick later she started researching which led to acceptance of gays as whole people throughout the psychological associations. Gays going to ex-gay ministries lasted 1 – 2 years, ex-gay leaders up to 8 years before figuring out God was not asking them to change and be str8. 99.9% of those beginning ex-gay leaders generally came from Catholic homes or strict Protestant homes. Their parent were nearly all very strict and very open homophobes. At some point in their lives they could not continue living with themselves some commit suicide other went to homophobic pastor who almost always set them up in a church program that included strict regiment of being told the anti-gay verses. Usually the pastors don’t want to spend time partly because they aren’t patient enough to goes through behavior modification techniques. Those pastors almost every time sends the gay to an ex-gay ministry. For ex-gay leaders that went thorough (all of them) they soon took over that ex-gay ministry or took over another one. Most of those ex-gay leaders were actually bi-sexual. Almost none of them had any formal Bible training yet they lead their x-gay ministry. At some point most failed and str8s took over or the ministry disappeared. Lies about gays abounded and Bible verses were never explained. I in those days had their flyers and brochures and packet for leaders to read over. One time I got a good close up of a Pentecostal group. They were on a talk show on TV I went to it to to see them personally to see what Pentecostal ex-gay were about. My concerns is in spite no Bible showing gay is sin this Pentecostal thing is a powerful thing. I was Pentecostal I know. I thought “what if” they spoke in tongues and operated in Word of Knowledge etc. Of course not on TV Pentecostal aren’t allowed that. I was the first to be called on the TV program to ask them a question. Normally in a gathering of pros and cons on the gay issues the cons sounds like evil unloving strict LAW of GOD or you get hell while the pro gays were always loving respectful of all people and displayed love continually throughout such talk shows. Later knowing the Pentecostal ex-gay would be speaking at the AOG locally I went to that. I had my cameras rolling. Fearful that this unknown may be hard to explain or understand as I expected Pentecostal would operate as usual have operations in the Holy Spirit. They also had detailed packets of everything about their ministry and its techniques. Well NO operation in the Spirit at all. The testimonies 100% (5 in person ex-gay testimonies)all had sparkles in their eyes as the re-lived their dating gays days then as they went into how they were supposed delivered it was a daily struggle and a work in progress with slippages. None could tell us they were now str8. The packet contain psychological behavior modification techniques that really are severe. Punishment was a part of the ordeal as if you slip you risk and receive abandonment, this was called tough love. I can spend day on these details if you like. I still have some packets somewhere I may even be able to dig up. Again, I could not find ex-gays that had any sort of normal life. Well most gays back then did have to lead dual lives or risk losing their job being kicked out of their apartments and disowned by families. But like in the late 40s that woman found in spite of the persecutions gays were very well adjusted and beneficial citizens. Amazing more to me is how you don’t seem to have testimony of healthy gays. Young gays, not only have I talked in detail with adult gays who told me about their coming out and how they discovered they were gay so knowing through adults about their childhood having a name like “gays4jesus” is a miracle in itself as it draws 10s of 1000s. I have maybe over 20 messenger names. At time I am in 6 or 7 Christian chat rooms not once or twice for since the early 80s. So I have talked probably to over 10,000 non-adult gays (I think this is a very conservative number). Youth you talk to has such problems that you see sick gays from the get go, therapists have almost no ability to talk to healthy gay youth. My name alone (though the Glory is to God Almighty who made this the only real name I could use when I started using that name pre 1985). This name in the first 3 years on my TV ministry generated over 800,000 homophobes who contacted me. I never really counted gays or pro-gays but they stream across my computer as well. Pre-computer it was mail. My lover and I went to gay churches we checked out MCC LA youth group since we were in LA and it was the only service at that hour of the day. Even back them there were 50 youths and such a sweet spirit of the Lord. The Youth pastor had a fabulous message (as always God has a message to fill in important info gathering beside the good old message) You know the saying seeing is believing (though lots of time as Christian we believe not seeing it) well there in front of me 50 or so youth all loving the Lord many gave testimonies during that service. Certainly nothing like what you say. Now back to my name drawing all walks of life. One part was 10,000 plus youth. Now if all my time hearing from youth almost none were molested, it is almost non-existent, sort of defies homophobes wishes, but hey you only see those in torment and suicidal how could you ever remotely hope to see average gay youth. Do you know today gay youth are dating just like str8 youth. It is amazing to hear middle schoolers tell about their dating life. Boy wouldn’t it have been nice to live today growing up free to date like others I did not have my first date until I was 22.Well I did date a couple girls in attempt to not be too old before my first date. I got my sister to find and set up these dates . I was not comfortable at all trying to analyze what to do and what I did not want to do. But my first gay date I was like an expert the first time it was all so natural and wonderful did not have try to figure out anything. But again the common testimony of youth is they knew they were often before they were 9 and at least by 12. This is what adult gays tell me too. I have come across a few (meaning maybe 4) in 10,000 that had an uncle or a dad or a brother influence them. However, they tell me they were gay already or that it only got them aware earlier. I also had plenty of homophobic youth pop up and their words are like a recorded session of an adult homophobe. I am amazed at how people so young knows every possible way to condemn gays based on the anti-gay doctrine. Now also tons of str8 youth that has no problem with gays. My name also attracts parents seeking help on upbringing Junior. That is really bazaar for me, but hey I will help them in fullness of the Lord Jesus Christ. How does gays4jesus make a parent seek parenting skills from a gay person? How does gays4jesus attract str8 dating couple to come for help on dating staying in line with Bible and the walk with Jesus? So when you use that 15 yr. old as an example I beg to differ with you because it is not real life. You are making yourself available to the sick not the healthy so you see a world fitting your false doctrine not the real world.
Regarding suicide, the homosexual community says that the reason people are suicidal is because of the way Christians say that homosexuality is a sin, so the homosexual tries to change, but they cant, and they feel depressed. What the Lord showed me was the opposite. The reason why homosexuals become suicidal is because they want God, but at the same time they have been told a lie that they are born that way. And because they tried to change and couldnt, they come to the conclusion that God made them that way. And at the same time, made homosexuality a sin, predestining them for hell.

Gays4jesus: Boy you are about as literally dumb as they get. Over 700 year Christians tell gays they are going to hell in less they change and be str8. I went over ex-gay leaders. 650 million gays are mostly healthy. I have been in worldwide contacts and gay newspapers and legal info and churches on this issue since before I was saved in 1974. I lived in Christian book store so know upside down and backward where you get your info about gays. What you don’t do is go to real gays and hear their testimonies. And what you believe is gang rape means gay is sin.
Society has brought up the notion of homosexuality being a gene. To the homosexuals who love the lifestyle, its become their hope, and to homosexuals who want God, it has become their plague. The fact of the matter is, many scientists, now (that dont have a bias) are coming out and being honest, that a gay gene simply cannot be found. There is a lot of research, but the problem is that it lacks conclusive hard evidence. And for the theories that are presented in promoting the gay gene, there are many logical arguments against them. That is why many scientist who have been studying this for a long time, have moved on to new theories, because the genetic theory has pretty much died, except for the diehard scientists who are determined to find what they want to find, and dont want to feel that all of their research was in vain.

Gays4jesus: The advent of science discover about the DNA brought up the notion gay was a gene not society. The Bible uses a Hebrew word for “rib” that means in the best translation that would render the English of it most accurately (Hebrew str8 scholars not from gays) as being “CELL from that RIB” Steve was in the DNA. Ex-gay ministries force a much larger than 1% gays, the numbers of gays in gay parades shows steadfast average of 10%. In my work alone we have over 20% gays, we have 150 employees. Only place to get reduced % is in child molestation cases which are 97% str8 3% gay. You sure don’t know your science, part of my life when I told God at 5 years old that from then on I would believe everything could be scientifically proven given time. This means my attitude sits in get the proof, later the proof is Jesus is who he said he is. I doubt you are a biologists. Neither am I but I am trilled and excited and hungered for tech and research and discoveries in this field as with much of science. Your source must be from a homophobe, remember I grew up in my new born experience in Christian book stores in the early 70s, no such thing as pro-gay, but in those homophobic scholars’ books truth was not their goals lies about gays, I being gay knew what they described was not true because I was well in knowledge of worldwide gays for many years before I accepted Jesus and knew real gays were not being describe I these books. What are your sources? Why do you defy real life?
Many have moved on to new theories regarding biology, and just like the interpretation of Romans 1, they have really stretched their imaginations in coming up with ways on how a person is homosexual. Some of the theories are so crazy that it is weird that some people that are so highly educated could even think things so irrational. And again, it shows desperation of how bad people want to find what they want to find. Its kind of like the way an Atheist would think. Many Atheists devote their life to proving God doesnt exist, and it almost becomes an obsession. They want the idea of God to go away so badly that they will believe irrational and illogical ideas, like the big bang. Theyll believe that something the size of my fist exploded and created stars a trillion times bigger than itself. Then theyll be willing to believe that humanity evolved by chance, first from a primordial ooze and then grew feet, and kept evolving into a human, without dying off over millions of years. They think that begin to think that with time, things grow, but reject the reality that with time, things decay. Thats why if I left a toy truck outside my house, in time, it wont grow feet, but rust, and whether away into nothing.

Gays4jesus: In 1974 pro-gay material done by extensive research has not changed. Nearly all that those first openly gay churches used for research by the scholars then showing gay is not sin has not changed, What I said in Christian chat rooms in 1985 onward is what generally is the roots of the works today. How you get gays are wishing gay was not sin is telling me you just don’t read pro-gay material that has established documentation of their research sources. I was chief atheist Jesus came personally to me stayed 24/7 for 3 years telling me about himself before I accepted him. Homophobes do not explain verses they like you read gang rape and say that is all the proof they need. You are talking to someone that was there and was the first openly gay person in the Christian chat world not trying to boast just saying you are talking with someone there in the beginning of Christian chat, I had only Christian books stores that all gay info was homophobic. I was there in the early days of dignity and MCC, I talked and visited with one of the most popular str8 pro-gay authors of the day. I also am telling you the tip of the iceberg. Your last paragraph is flat out wrong. You are talking to a firsthand person not someone that has hearsay to base things on. That why verses like Lev man with man one day can be found to not condemn gays because of the actual Hebrew used in the verse are Hebrew words for “practicing str8 man” and much more detail which I did give you but you rejected it I am sure since you are not referring to it to try to prove it wrong.
So, can intelligent people get it wrong? Absolutely!! Does education mean that society will become better? Of course not. Humanity is flawed (Romans 1:18-31). And humanity will always struggle and eventually suffer at their own hands when they live according to their own wisdom, which is what we are seeing now. We see a world who relies heavily on their own understanding. And look at the world. Is it any better? Its worse. We have more psychology today and medication than anytime in human history, and we have the most depressed and suicidal people. We have more drug addicts, alcoholics, broken families, divorces (and much of this is in the church too), crime, etc

Gays4jesus: So far all you are doing is placing me into all these types people that honest try but are completely wrong and worse because you are searching out many Bible places that talks about some obviously evil people. Now when condemning gays you first needs deal with the 14 verses, you just can’t go into verses that talks about sins or conditions of certain kinds of people determined to be in known provable sins and are blatantly obviously not having a foundation and belief in sound doctrine having a statement of faith like mine: http://s91536390.onlinehome.us/gaysforjesus/Statement.html now if you are smart you would see it is basically a copy of the AOG’s statement of faith. Reading over their statement of faith I find really nothing I am in disagreement with. I stick by AOG at least as a foundation because I am solidly rooted in their fundamental beliefs. Doctrines generally are very agreeable to me too. To condemn my faith would also be to condemn AOG. That would mean your words needs to be to them not me for I am an Assemblies of God man pretty much to the core. I prefer break away churches because they don’t have the blocks bylaws and some doctrines enforce its pastors to adhere to. Now you left AOG because you hated the bickering. Go online to Christian chat rooms and you will see it is not AOG it is all denomination and all Christian church in general. But this is not because people are getting worse, it is because the time is close and so deceptions are taking hold of the Elect too. Planned divisions in almost everything of 50/50 pro con is easily seen. This was no accident but a direct goal and plan of the Masons to prepare the world to accept antichrist. You should have stayed with your first love and pray and minister to them, but how can you help them if you can’t see the true root of the open behavior of today’s Christians. You are become part of the plan become disloyal to a well rooted denomination. True of all churches today, but Christians rather leave than pray and work through and perhaps restore some in the Church. You listed conditions that are not orientation related but human related, yet in your list you would list gays as one of the conditions that destroys. Keep in mind you are way off track going to all manner of Christian troubles as though they are heaped onto to gays because you did not come to me to talk about the Church condition you came to condemn gays so try to stay the course and deal with the verses that you belief 2 people of the same sex having love and sex is sin. There are 14 two of those 14 do not talk about same sex sex at all but are so commonly used to condemn gays I include them. Now there are some other verses that may add 2 or 3 more that some have tried to make condemnation of lesbians. 7 of all these verse use the word sodomite. Sodomite is the major key too homophobia and yet homophobes will not address it. Can you imagine 7 or 14 that’s ½ of the verses used against gays are so easily shown to mean temple prostitutes. It amazes me how otherwise intelligent people like you somehow can’t grasp what cutting out ½ of your doctrine against gays. But you just ignore it. Another verse is just saying Adam and Eve so suddenly it does not matter the Bible is a huge book covering so many things you just are convince that verse condemns gays. Was EVE black, white, or brown, was she the same color as Adam? Were their babies the same color, there is no mention of other colors science tells us black is black and white is white. But still they had to be a color so other colors have to be sin simply because Adam and Eve weren’t that color, this sounds stupid but it is just as stupid to say Adam and Eve were str8 so gay is sin.
Things are changing rapidly. As the world begins to grow further from God, we will see a culture growing deeper into their degree of rebellion. The difference between homosexuality now, compared with homosexuality of cultures, in history is that homosexuality has never been accepted as a norm on the grand scale of a culture that it has achieved of itself today. Homosexuality has been around from the beginning, practically in every single culture, but it has never made it to prominence as a legitimate condition created by God. Now, we as a culture have gone so far to believe that it is, which shows how much we have exchanged the truth for a lie.

Gays4jesus: Wow so pitiful you take o gay history. 700 years ago the Catholic invented the anti-gay doctrine to purge people from high positions that did not agree with them. As common the rule the Vatican sets up has persecuted many and has set conditioning to sink so deep into its followers and catholic has so successfully influenced all region that other gods doctrines on gays often comes from Catholics. Read into the more ancient of other religion, they don’t have their own rooted condemnation of gays, but they do have a well adopted catholic antigay doctrine, Atheist use the antigay doctrine invented by the Catholic too. Today you can’t tell rape from love when you talk about gays because of conditioning. Gays were accepted as norms in matriarchal societies and gays were not accepted as norms in patriarchal societies in general. Guess you think you know history, and I guess you think I am stupid. Most of history gays were not an issue they blended in and were not much a topic pro or con it was mostly a non-issue until the 15th century. You have 700 plus years of being told gay is sin.
The Roman Empire has often been portrayed as possessing a moral tolerance of homosexuality, and there is some truth in this. But, the Roman conception of same-sex relationships was very different than that of the modern West. The most important factors in the Roman view seem to have been the status and role of the partners. The Romans did not consider homosexual or heterosexual identities as exclusive from one another. While bisexuality was common, strict homosexuality was all but unknown. Unlike the modern view, social class mattered a great deal in the acceptability of homosexual relations. The upper classes were much more likely to indulge in homosexual acts, and masters had the sexual use of their slaves. But homosexual relations between freeborn Romans were regarded as disgraceful.

Gays4jesus: again it is the 14 verse you need to address not how gays were perceived in different eras or different locales. It is a big issue today because no longer will gays sit back and take the lies from people like you. Gone are the days that YOU have power to keep gays silent. This does not make today worse it means like any time of persecution there comes a day of reckoning. Blacks do not have the rights today because Christians stood up for them. Christians are in the news today wanting to glorify the days of slavery saying they were fighting for freedoms against the North. Ethnic cleansing is a hated word eventually those in power are booted out so freedom comes in. Some leader don’t let loose easily and other countries often are not that quick to help those persecuted. Always groups are persecuted. Christians persecuting Christians and so on. A 19 point thesis nail the Catholic door what a daring person he was yet today all denomination generally agree with that 19 point thesis right? And those freeborn Romans went to Pompeii and had orgies. Because of Christian persecuting gays gays has become a nation of 650 million connected together. There is not land that is their nation for they are a nation in all nations and have become a strong nation thanks to one day Catholic gays had enough 1967, the next year Protestant gays had enough 1968, the next years secular gays had enough 1969. Prophesy God will give gays pastors in the last days. In 1967 & 68 that was fulfilled. God said I will restore your dignity, today you know the hassle groups get when they publically condemn gays. You may hate these blessings especially now countries are legalizing gay marriages and state by state it is happening in the USA also there are situation that may radically force legalizing it federally long before ¾ of the states come round. Step by step a process as with any persecuted group that finally gains their rights. God has steps for those and appointed times for those. We live in the appointed time for gays to take back their place in the Church. It was first Catholics to amputate gays out of the Body of Christ then the protestants and now is the time God is grafting them back in.
The fact of the matter is this. If Paul and the early church thought that homosexuality was not a sin, Paul would have not pointed out that the men of the church should not be having sex with temple prostitutes, he would have pointed out that they should not be fornicating because having sex before marriage is strictly forbidden throughout scripture. Paul did not go there. He made it a strict point that the acts of people of the same gender havent sexual contact was a character of ungodliness and of rebellion against God, whether the people professed God or not.

Gays4jesus: Even your own words is Hebrew men went to temple prostitutes. You can see to say that yet you still use that verse to say gay is sin. Now you want to bring in fornication,, you speak with forked tongue almost in the same sentence you admit male temple prostitutes and str8 men then you reverse that and say same sex. Same sex is not a catch all it is either both are gay or one is gay and one is str8 which is rational not likely gonna have a 100% str8 man having a daily life as a male temple prostitute. Paul by the way does cover fornication and another FACT fornication is a complex word according to str8 preachers that dig through its ancient usages.
Ive been researching homosexuality for quite a while now, and honestly I have not heard to many Christians give an intelligent rebuttal to the I was born this way theory. About 5 years ago I wrote a paper arguing that there are 3 ways a person becomes homosexual. Ive given this paper to over a 100 people, gay, straight, and bi. Ive only had a few people who would even attempt to argue back these points because most of them have never heard ideas from this angle. But it has been freeing to so many homosexuals that Ive given it to because it has taught them to think OUTSIDE THE BOX, instead of the view from our old societal perspective. Its really a framing of thinking about psychology and culture.

Gays4jesus: your 100 to my 100,000 may triple that I guess you got a good review of that topic huh? People don’t become an orientation they are the orientation. What you don’t seem to think exist is bisexuals. Not anywhere at any time have you related to bisexuals. Bisexual can be very very very horrible because they can say they changed to be str8 who would know. With all the women being raped by men for all history the overwhelming results is they stay str8. Never in the Bible (of course it probably would not be a detail God would address who knows why unless we accept MEN remain true to their curse from the Garden that they will subjugate women)” Gen16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” So this curse is still something men have to fight constantly and is a part of many things. Raping a woman does not change her to gay. I have seen or heard from many 1000s of lesbians that have been raped. As much as the concept of hating men is enjoyed as a cause, physically speaking hets they were not ever. I been around the block and don’t mean to be rude or offensive to the pain but bisexuals are a huge block for homophobes because they answer so many wishes. I use rape as it is about the most extreme logical reason for a str8 too become gay. I don’t buy it at all. I got information overload here and one plus one equal str8 rapees go onto to marry and love men as any het does. Bisexuals can live their gay side of that out with relative comfort and believe strongly they hate men so a way around it is love women instead. Bisexuals are predictable and are the monkey wrench in sane research if bisexuality is left out of the equation. They most homophobic of bisexuals are often in the lime light or talk shows and speaking engagements to homophobic gatherings. Hey invite the bisexual (you call gay) to give testimony. These often can be seen to be the stereotype lesbian from a mile away. Why can’t these so called str8s became gay be otherwise normal enough looking women. Yes there are some like that, but the numbers shout out one method to make one gays as you say is raped into it. Another seduced into it. Now this is another widely abused excuse to get people gay. Don’t you know if a gay person approach a str8 person and made an otherwise normal pass at them the gay person may get beat up. A het male won’t be caught dead sexually with another male. Now the exception is the bisexual may find that the pass is acceptable and enjoyable after they get over the initial shock. If you stick to the 90% 10% rule you will be most of the time right. Exceptions can be really odd and not easy to explained. Trying to figure why a few oddy that are a handful compared to the 650 to 670 million gays is really not addressing the issues. Like a Christian that does not go to church claiming they don’t need it, they accepted Jesus and nothing else is needed and they are right about all things they think the Bible says. No matter the denomination or other Christian they won’t acknowledge them. They insist on talking like they are a true believers and have the answers and at first seem genuine. Then something is wrong and a few questions you find out they associate with no other Christian and it is really extremely difficult to get them to tell anything about how they came to Jesus and by what background was involved. Just basically no point with this sort so it is also true when dealing with the unusual rare exception of why a rare few do not seem to have a fitting explanation concerning how they came to be gay, these are divisive. Now you said freeing??? Now tell me how many years did you follow those freed gays? 1 year 2, 3, 5? Most ex-gay ministry don’t follow their clients very far into the future but plenty others do follow them and 100% did not change. Even bisexual don’t change, their spouse’s testimonies detail years of strugglings and back slidings. Some will go 30 years before they no longer can hide their well-kept secret that they did not change. One thing about the Bible it is a big book and covers lots of ground and so if you use part of it to condemn then you are required to answer to another part of it that details something that relates but means you really changed whole systems. Like marriage the infamous gays can’t marry, but no Christian gets married like Bible marriage and the Bible show several stages of marriage evolution and after Jesus marriage continued to evolve, the Bible didn’t complain about marriage evolution, wow so many Christians would die to keep our modern pagan ritual marriages and the dating structure that get 2 people together that leads to marriage to be anything other than God ordained though they can’t produce it in the Bible. You say YOU BEEN FREEING SO MANY GAYS well then that begs to ask what is the name of your ministry. How did you get so into gays? I feel there is more to this than the simple you just did these things. Maybe more to the porn, maybe you are believing you are ex-gay so you are fighting me so hard because you don’t want to admit you are not changing. I know there is more to this story about you than you are saying. Wonder if you would be so honest as to tell me? Just is getting to me something is rotten and it’s not in demark. Your story has flaws in it. There is major missing important pieces here y are not telling me.
I would love for you to read it and if possible, post it on your blog for others to read and be challenged. 
Thanks ;)

Gays4jesus: My blog is available for comments. I have no restrictions, I may delete or comment on some but I don’t have to post anything for you, all my entries can be commented on and they can be tweeted and faced etc. you should already have it on your blog or your website. Hard to imagine you without one since you are so involved with gays. My blogs are auto sent to several other sites I have, but I don’t spend a ton of time with the same person, I am pretty much done with you. In the future this is all I will accept from you is your detaile answers to these verses which I have a very brief explanation that I go into detail on my many sites and TV programs:

Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angels, all the boys all the grandpas all men all the people, Lot's Daughter's raped him and had his babies

Gen 22:2 Rib means "Cell from that Rib" Steve in the DNA

Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.

Deut 23:17 don't be a male temple prostitute,

IKing 14:24 rarely used male temple prostitute,

IKing 15:12 rarely used male temple prostitute,

IKing 22:46 rarely used male temple prostitute,

II Ki 23:7 rarely used male temple prostitute,

Lev 18:22 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress, Hebrew word for man "practicing str8 man"

Lev 20:13 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress, Hebrew word for man "practicing str8 man"

Rom 1:27-28 Should be 18-32. Str8 adults turned from God to gods, God changed them, ritual orgies results visible evil behavior, 28-32 gays are opposite these verses.

1 Cor 6:9 expensive call boy and male temple prostitute, 1950 original two Greek words removed, meant masturbation before 1850,

1 Tim 1:10 male temple prostitute,

Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientation

If you add you own extra verses you simple are rejecting to explain the above as did the 800,000 homophobes that went before you when they tell me gay is sin. All and any other verse has no reflection to same sex sex they pertain to verifiably proven sins not someone’s wish list of sins. i.e. “The wages of sin is death” using this verse means you washed your hands of the matter to explain gay is sin and simply are using this verse to tell the gay person he is going to hell, this is not explain the 14 verses above.

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Original Mercedes

Just a test practice of my new mini notebook so I can see how I can use this feature to record daily journal of my upcoming Hawaii vacation video

Monday, April 12, 2010

The part about Pentecostals visiting other churches is so true

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Gay Pentecostal Faith Healing Ministries

8:31Added: 1 year ago

From: gays4jesus
Views: 475

clip_image004The above YouTube Clip (click to view) was commented by:
humbletom  Comment removed humbletom  Comment removed humbletom  Comment removed


humbletom

gays4jesus: Who knows what humbletom wrote in the 3 comments they removed?

humbletom The part about pentacostals visiting other churches is so true. That is too funny. I still get a little loud though.

gays4jesus: Yeah, (I assume you are talking generally any Pentecostal) Hard to stay calm in a non-Pentecostal church. Jesus is so good how can one just sit there and not be expressing their personal relationship with him? My hands and arms fight the resistance to raise in worship. Ah but Christian culture in non-Pentecostal churches demands respecting non-Pentecostal at the expense of Pentecostals.

Personally, I am all for intimate male relationships, just not in a sexual way.

gays4jesus: DUH. . . Good to know you are socializing with peers, I guess I must have been thinking you only related sexually and only to women that they were for sex only to you and that socializing simply wasn’t right, how dumb of me, heh heh.

I am not gay,

gays4jesus: Sure glad you told me so I won’t have to hit on you, I would have never known. . .

but I believe that gay men just have a heightened need for male relationships than regular guys.

gays4jesus: How stupid! That is like saying male str8s have a heighten need for female relationships. Sorry to pop your bubble but , str8s and gays are alike. They are attracted exactly the same for the same relationship results which is loving, long term caring relationship generally called marriage. There is no mystery humans just want to be together, no one is having a heightening needs just a regular built in (God given) natural desire to be with someone.

However, I believe the world and satan has added a sexual dimention to the equation which is not Holy.

gays4jesus: Far too many Christians give satan the glory for God created normal behaviors. When did satan add this dimension? 10 yrs. ago, a 100, a 1000? Why then does history record standard everyday gays soon after the Ark settled on Ararat? There are hints to earlier and if you get into many more ancient tales from the many sources that seems to go beyond the Earth covered water before Adam. Whether things are provable or not still gives the facts that info is available telling you gays were there all the while and behaving like str8s concerning morality and immorality.

The Bible is clear on sexual immorality.

gays4jesus: If it is so clear tell me about it. Those thinking gay is sin never go into much more detail than you just did in your phrase above. There are 14 verses used by homophobes to condemn gays. There is history on how this false doctrine got started 700 some years ago. What there is not is people like you to explain what word, what phrase, or what verse has real gays that we recognize as doing like str8s. Meeting someone, dating them, falling in love with them, then marrying them. We know str8s rape and abuse their spouses and are prostitutes so why doesn’t Bible verses detailing these acts condemning all str8s? Those 14 verses describe details about acts of rape, prostitution, and ritual orgies. Why do such verse make you believe gay is sin?

Thanks for your comments