From: Ben [mailto:noreply-comment@blogger.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:18 PM
To: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com
Subject: [Stables Ministry Home of Gay For Jesus TV] New comment on landmark777@aol.com says, “everyone you tell this ....
Ben has left a new comment on your post "landmark777@aol.com says, “everyone you tell this ...":
How do you explain these verses (below) from Romans Chapter 1? It doesn't say anything about "temple prostitutes" as you argue - the bible is very clear on homosexuality! Please, friend, turn from this perversion and STOP trying doing what you are doing and stop trying to approve it!!!
gays4jesus: as we read what Ben said we find nothing except the assumption that it is talking about gays. Ben does not seem to know Paul’s day history. In my writings I very often go into detail about Paul’s day and that Paul saw on every street corner (as we today say there is a church on every corner) was a fertility temple. It is not up for guessing what took place inside these fertility temples. We know that their priest and other men even as much as amputated their body part so as to appear more female to the male customers.
I recently did a TV program from the ruins of the temple of Cybele. This goddess was considered to be the mother of the gods starting around the 2nd century BC and was very important in Paul’s day.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
gays4jesus: Most homophobes do like Ben did just quote a verse without explanation and assume everyone auto understands it to be describing gays. This “God gave them over” phrase demands an answer to who are the “THEY” people. So let go to the Bible and find out who the “THEY” people are:
Rom 1:18-23 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Verse 18 begins the story and it is a specific story which you cannot insert any group you want because the group is about to be described in detail. Any group you insert must fall into the above and below descriptions if you want to include them in verses 18-32.
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (KJV)
The “THEY” people are those that had time in their lives to know GOD. What homophobes do is redefine “glorified him not as God, neither were thankful” so that gays (though they could not be gay if God changed them to gay as Ben’s quoted verse 24-25 would mean). Real gays many are Christian and they Glorify God as defined and acted upon by whatever denomination understanding of that. Gays don’t invent Glorifying it is the denominations that invent a doctrine of Glorifying. Usually it is just a phrase said in church i.e. “I glorify you God” repeatedly. Generally, this phrase and thankfulness is genuine enough and inter-denominational that few contest the form of Glorifying God. So you have 650 million gays many are Christian and going to church and giving Glory to God in like manner and genuiness of heart as the str8 Christian next to them. How does Ben distinguish that these gay Christians are not Glorifying God. Answer is Ben like most homophobe cannot accept that God so loved the world that who so ever believes shall have eternal life. Ben needs to see a gay person change to str8 to be convinced they are now Christian. Thankfulness is also something that is not something hidden away from view. One can say thnk-you and not really mean it, but being Thankful to God is very well established over the last 2000 years and hardly questionable in church when people testify about being thankful to God. How did Ben determine gays doing exactly the same thanking God somehow are not thankful. Ben again has to assume being gay is auto not thankful.
Verse 24 – 25 say God did something. What homophobes tell you is that God made them gay. Or at best they completely disregard the detailed description given in 18-23 who the THEY PEOPLE are and simply assume God manipulated the gay person’s mind so they would start same sex sex and fulfill their evilness. This begs to have explained why gays worldwide and in all history are gay from a very young age. This means that today you have 650 million gays and the fact is they are gay and discover this at very young age, many before 9 some much before 9 and most by puberty. Am I guessing, why should I guess? Do I have facts? Yes, 10s of 1000s of interviews. Many decades of studying and research. Gays many are Chrisstian just like str8s at a very young age, so they “KNEW GOD” they were thankful in the same since str8 Christian operate in thankfulness to God. Gays did not turn from GOD to gods. They did not once know God then stopped knowing him and they did not stop Glorifying GOD. YES as many str8s turn from GOD because of tough life many gays having better reasons because homophobes express that God hate them so often feel that God must hate them and so turn from him. Always will have those that turn from God. But the most do not trun from God. After all he is TRUTH. It is a myth gays are not Christian or can’t be.
God gave them over?? 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity… How did Ben determine the sinful desire? And how did Ben decide it was sexual impurity? Have to exam real FACTS what are gays doing? In the case of this implied verse, it would be sexual. So what is it that gays do sexually? Well to best understand gay sex is to look at yourself the str8 person. Every gay knows everything about str8 sex from the get go. They know you upside down and backwards because you tell them the details of every sex act you do and why you do it. TV, books, stories, history, and much more talks about what str8s do. Str8s and gays know all the good and bad about str8 sexualness. We and you know about your raping, Your dominating your love your dating everything thinkable about str8 sex in a known. Now you knowing str8 sex meaning why and how you started it why can’t you understand gay sex? Once upon a time your body said I want a opposite sex partner. This occurred not because of TV or mommy saying one day you will grow up and get married. What really happened was you found you wanted SEX with the opposite sex. You knew to get this meant you must follow a process. Part of wanting sex is wanting love so don’t get me wrong or assume I am make it all the act of sex and not an act of love. You found at the age of 9 -12 on average you wanted to get it on with the opposite sex. Part of all this is companionship and the warm fuzzys of love. But a good part of it is you want to sex act and what you can do to get it. Often it could mean patiently waiting years. Most of the time as research proves Christians have sex on their first date. Christian str8s often have a number of sexual partners before marrying. Whatever is right or Bible does seem to effect the numbers of sexual partners str8 Christians have before settling down with one for life, again this is still going to produce 60% divorce rate in Christian str8s. The Bible explains marriage is an evolution. If you say the Bible says one person, then why do 100% of the patriarchs in the Bible have a multitude of sexual partner all very legal. The real Bible days (meaning Jesus times) you refer to about marriage is when marriage was a planned by leaders of the family (MEN) and how it would profit each family. The marriage couple had no choice in who they would marry. Using the conditions of marriage in Jesus’ day you can find many Bible gay marriages.
This long rambling I am doing is to point out that you do know that str8s that end up married know very well how they got into bed with their spouse and rarely any str8 Christian condemns (except jokingly) how the finally met their spouse. The most disgusting testimonies are the extremely rare met spouse in junior high and did not have sex till we got married after high school/college. These type ministers teach often the impossibility of the most people real lives to do what that person did. What is also known the type lives these so called purist lived is bazaar at best. Long story short, you know your life so well why can’t you know gay people’s loves and be able to compare it with the verses homophobes use?
Gays in fact discover they are gay about the same age that str8s discover they are str8. Again str8 assume the are str8 (gay do to) but it is the time of life when you begin to want to be with someone that you discover you really are str8 indeed because you got the hots for the opposite sex. Gay don’t have the luxury of forced down them from birth they are str8 and then find at that age they enter heat. Horny reigns whether you want to admit it or not. Yeah, I am exaggerating the point but you know what I mean. Most of you ached in desire to be with someone. You anchored yourself by the phone hoping it would ring and zap, you got that date. Yet you do not call it verse 26-27 shameful lust or vile. You call it puppy love.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
gays4jesus: Before I get sick in that Ben is using a satan counterfeit bible. I must let all you readers know that all modern version Bibles are from Westcott and Hort, these 2 were occultists in the 1880s, they hated KJV with a passion and the colleges of the day were convinced that so called true believers with way behind the time in scientific advancement that the Bible was way wrong and against what science has come to know in those 1800s. Westcott and Hort took the Catholics corrupt Latin Vulgate manuscript (from the 2nd century translation) and translated it into Greek (a bazaar form of it) and then back into English. These 2 were very influential and got their whole translation to become the official Church of England’s Bible where all modern versions comes from. Depending on the Bible version there are 50,000 to 80,000 corruptions designed to take Christ out of Jesus.
Now after my long winded discourse about you knowing str8 sex you need to re-read 26-27 and find the parts that match your life. I bet you will say it is not about you. You say that because even though you did go to bed with other people beside your spouse you consider that part of growing up and settling down and not to serious and if anything a fun source of joking how much of a slut you might have been. Just beside some of you readers may not have had much of a sexual life before your spouse does not make you common, but in fact rare. Saying that makes you more special is senseless because we have 2000 years of Christianity that says playing around before spouse does not seem to change the miracles and blessings and so forth in your life. Crisis happens to anyone blaming your sins often is not the true source. Too many things to compare in life and no pattern that could support less or more blessings and or rewards to receive in Heaven. The pattern that comes out is Christians persecuting Christians, this has had and will have substantial effect on the coming days.
Now knowing yourself and what you call love in your relationship you should be able to compare with gays. Verse 26-27 is a vivid description of something quite strange indeed. It indicates a minimal and orgies. So what in Paul’s day did Paul see or know about that inspired him to write 18-32? Well first of most important is the Bible is the word of God so Paul was inspired by God and cannot write person opinions except those conditioned in him by God from birth. What Paul wrote was what God showed him and inspired him to write and later inspired believers and non-believers to save and later be available to be decided to be put in the Bible hundreds of years later. Paul was instrumental in getting God’s message to us today. It is not as also the rest of the Bible something that can be attributed only to Paul or other writer’s but only by God’s inspiration. However, we have access to all things via internet, false things as well as the truth. This can take time and patient to weed through. Don’t come to me with something you accidently came across by accident. Show me the effort you took to find the background on your surprising revelation. Revelation will never be against the Bible. If you can not show the Bible then it cannot be taught as a revelation by God even if it was a revelation. God’s word is the judge of God’s revelation.
So, what did Paul do and see while in Corinth and Rome? I said earlier he saw a fertility temple on every corner. While in Corinth Paul went into a temple that had over 1000 temple prostitutes this is a FACT. Also many orgy rooms. Sex rituals was done in worshipping the gods of Paul’s day. In that very temple was that very statue to the unknown god. Paul spoke at that temple. It was the largest and most famous temple in Corinth.
Research Paul’s day all you want, you will not find that Paul visited the gay community, (which was not like today because gay was not so separated like today, gays were integrated and though there were as many as 9 Greek words that could be used for real gays, Paul did not use any of them. We cannot easily see any of the Bible writers have any obvious history around real gays. Too see real gays takes more time to find because gays we called by phrases and or terms not easily recognize in our day. All real gays in the Bible at least 5 more obvious and many mentions of gays that you really need to know the times and how gays were discussed in those days.
In the fertility temple sex to gods and goddesses through male and female temple prostitutes were a daily often event. Male temple prostitutes were far more sacred; they often cut off the male part and dressed like women. This does not render transvestites sin. Paul’s concern were Hebrew men went to these temples to have ritual sex with the male temple prostitutes (sodomites in the Greek and Hebrew word):
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe');from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
Also for nature and natural: 5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591. 5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
Summarizing: seed and instinct. Meaning in the Greek sentence grammar an apple tree cannot produce oranges when its blossoms come. Born gay you cannot become str8 when dating age comes. “Born gay” is very significant. Because a phrase in Jesus’ day “born eunuch” meant gays. This is not a fly by night wish, but one of intensive research into writings of Jesus day rendering it an absolute. Wishing this phrase can’t mean gays means you fail to study actual facts of Jesus day. All I can do is wish you would. Praying you would heh heh, you won’t want that, because that prayer is going to be answered and you won’t like it.
Gays learn they are gay very young and they like you seek to find someone to share love as you sought and may still be seeking. They make love, they date they fall in love they make a home just like you do. What you are required to do is show the Bible condemning gays that are performing a life like you are performing. You need to show Paul saying I saw a gay couple who have been in love and lived together for these 20 years. They are benefits to the community in many ways with their skills as good supports to the community and they are the best employee of the companies they work at. They take great care of their biological family in crisis and much more good reports. Paul need to condemn these in the Bible so then you can say gay is sin., Now if you go to a gay bar and see gays kissing and holding hands and dancing, you must also go to a str8 bar to condemn such. If you see in that bar 2 gays go to one’s home and they have sex, you have to go to the str8 bar and see the str8 pair go to one of their homes and have sex. This comes behaviors with like behaiviors. Generally no str8 person will condemn a night out in regards to meet someone for companionship or love or simply a good time. Bath houses or other perceived sexual immoralities are extremely common for str8s and so hardly a way to condemn gays because some go to bathhouses. It comes down to what did Paul really talk about? Str8 adults turned from GOD to gods so God gave them over to join in the sexual rituals of the orgies in fertility temples these Hebrew turned to in actual too large of numbers to disregard. Compare apples to apples.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
gays4jesus: 650 million gays in the world and at least that many that have lived and died in history. So these verses should be the simple and clear gay is not sin proof. Gays are about as opposite as you can get from 28-32. They are great leaders, best employees, they take care of your health needs, it is known if gays were banned from the health care field it would collapse. They are pillars in family crisis. The good works as it were of gays can go on in volumes. How does Ben show gays are this reprobate mind and commit these fowl deeds. Most of the list most people are committing in some form or other and more than one in the list. This to be meaningful has to be people that are in great disregard of all morals and gays are not even remotely connected to those disregards. You can always find str8s doing really sick sexual immoral things, gays are human and not exempt from those things str8s do.
Bottom line is if you really want to condemn gays or say the Bible says it not you, then please what manner of method can I request from you to take time to explain how you came to the conclusion a verse condemns gays. Gays are not stupid, as it appears you assume. They know they are not doing what you claim the Bible says they are doing. They know they are doing what you do in the romance department. But you so insist they are raping an in orgies and are prostitutes in fertility temples.
In my 62 years I have yet to find any homophobe take the time to show real gays in the Bible and explain how they got gays into the verses they use. I have interviewed or in some way talk or heard from 800,000 plus homophobes can you be the first to explain how you get gays into a verse?
Posted by Ben at October 1, 2009 2:18 PM
gays4jesus:commented by gays4jesus
