Saturday, October 3, 2009


Who are they?

How old will they be when they meet each other?

Why aren’t they known today?

Do they even have any sort of ministry today?

Are they living a life of as it were as some suggest purity and obedience to God?

Think about it! Why is there little known about these two and of all prophecies it is rare to talk about these two? We love to talk about the tribulation period and the many prophecies we try to figure out corresponds to some current event to denote to soon start of the trib. We love to guess who antichrist is and many movies generated about these sort of events. All the efforts to prove or disprove prophecy are ongoing entertainment. We long for Jesus’ return and presence in every way we can scenarios that might point to his soon return. But, missing nearly completely is discussions on the two witnesses. You can find all sort of site and books that try to explain theories some actually are close but you have to spend time finding them and most mock anyone’s idea about the TWO.

Well God has shown me a lot and I also usually avoid talking about this in my writings. I will not write specifics, as they remain too deep and fragile to loosen in a public blog, site, or meeting. Deep and fragile is because of the intimate position they hold with God and Jesus i.e. one on the right hand the other on the left hand of the incomprehensible God and Savior. My meaning is we are learning each day the infiniteness of the universe and have to go bonkers thinking God is everywhere even far beyond the trillions of light year astronomers can see. We seem to still put God in a box to control. These TWO will be at God’s side and there are those that say choose me like the apostles and like the mother asked Jesus:

Mark 10:37 they said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. (KJV)

Matt 20:20-21 20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. (KJV)

What comes with the position of the left and right is there is no living thing holds that position and so thinking and or desiring such a place maybe nice thoughts on the service to God, but hardly what the position entails. What it is will be 2 people God wants to be with (he wants to be with everyone for he so loved the world) but in spite of his love and no respecter of persons he does indeed got in mind two people in all of everyone that ever lived. These two are alive today.

Who are they?

They are not what or who can be found to be generally described by most Christian no matter their expertise of the topic. Most seem to copy paste the related direct verses that a lot of us know. Some want them to be non-human but symbols of Holy Spirit and Bible. Some want them to be Elijah and Moses or a mix of a short list of candidates. Well, the TWO have not been waiting:

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me (KJV). Though this is intriguing possibility, it is just not practical or likely. What is the most likely is two people were born so that their age would be appropriate to begin their ministry of first shutting off the WATER.

Both will be white males, but they are not white males based on ideas any other race would qualify or that a female would not qualify. It is just a FACT. Sort of guessing and wishing but actually like Spock’s guessing from Star Trek I will say they are from the USA. The USA holds many secrets in God’s plan. The USA is not so God fearing, but it is both the product of the best and the worst of humans. It is producing the main leaders of antichrist’s kingdom, though the highest elite are in the UK. The USA also provides much good. Over all what we assume about most countries is more what we want to hear than what is real.

I can probably give at least one name but won’t. The other could possibly be from another country, but time seems to be saying they will meet in the USA or have their home there.

How old will they be when they meet each other?

One will be older and one younger, how much I am not sure, but probably many years different. Probably has many meanings why the difference, maybe representing OT and NT. One can speak to the generation that won’t pass away till Jesus returns the other fill will in the holes of the generation gap that will begin to be the armies and followers of antichrist. I am being vague on purpose.

Why aren’t they known today?

This is a good question after all at least one of them been around the block once or twice. It is possible and likely both or one of them has a ministry, but not all that well known or that whatever they are doing is nothing that gains acceptance or attention. Most sights or sources that talks about them usually are fall fetched or unrealistic or in the realm of using just verses leaving you with well so then what questions. I find it frustrating to read sights concern the TWO because they claim either they are the TWO or that they are some sort of untouchable super humans.

God has separated them apart. No matter what they do or how great a message they speak they will be unheard. Should anyone see them little or no fanfare will be given. It is though they are in a sealed prison doomed to wait to the day they are called forth. What I see is a timeline for them to appear. Today they work, play, and live like most anyone. I rather doubt by what I find that they are highly educated, God is not looking for a Bible guru as it were. Nothing would stand out in their lives to tell anyone else they qualify for the position of the left or right side of God. I can get very detailed on much more on who they are but right now I am still restrained to do so. They will not be known probably till they speak the infamous words that stops the rain. I believe if one knew when the two met they could calculate up to within 75 days of the Rapture.

Do they even have any sort of ministry today?

Some parts answered above. I think they have a ministry and at least one for some time, mainly getting Holy Spirit training for their Trib ministry.

Are they living a life of as it were as some suggest purity and obedience to God?

The Bible goes into far more detail than the common few verses we readily know concerning them. It shows they are indeed sinners saved by grace. The Bible is not saying they are living Holier than Thou lives either. They are not as it were living in purity as some think a person of God should be. I bet that most Christians real reject them alone on just there over all lives, I am not saying these TWO are out purposely coming sins, but they are not living what we assume good shepherds of churches should live. Their language will not be every other word a quote from the Bible. image Most Christian will want to kill them and will even help antichrist do that. These TWO will shock you so many ways you just pray for their deaths. They will bring such things that will bring you to the brink and many in fact huge numbers will turn from Jesus because they will see God is with them and they can’t accept that at all. These TWO will know how to aggravate you it is their mission from God to break you. It is not their mission to sin you to hell, but to keep you secure to live eternally with Christ Jesus. This cannot happen with current affair in the church. Their ministry that that they were born to do begins probably 2.5 years after they meet. It will last 1260 days, this is not so much their ministry as it is the time God requires to get his people ready for the Rapture. The rapture is compared to the Passover in that the Death Angel passed over the homes that had blood painted on the doorposts and door mantles. Likewise, 1260 days is required to paint Jesus’ Blood on you so that the angels with the harvest sickles can PLUCK you off Earth. If you are not Washed in the manner of 1260 days these sickles will slide off you. You will have to endure another 1260 days and then if you finally get it will get your physical body healed so you can live around 1000 years old, but still on Earth in your physical body.

God is great and Greatly to be Praised. These Last Days are much more complex than a simple fun time to hear how the bad folk get killed.

Happy to hear questions on these TWO I may answer some if I am allowed.

Ben said... How do you explain these verses

From: Ben []
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:18 PM
Subject: [Stables Ministry Home of Gay For Jesus TV] New comment on says, “everyone you tell this ....

Ben has left a new comment on your post " says, “everyone you tell this ...":
How do you explain these verses (below) from Romans Chapter 1? It doesn't say anything about "temple prostitutes" as you argue - the bible is very clear on homosexuality! Please, friend, turn from this perversion and STOP trying doing what you are doing and stop trying to approve it!!!

gays4jesus: as we read what Ben said we find nothing except the assumption that it is talking about gays. Ben does not seem to know Paul’s day history. In my writings I very often go into detail about Paul’s day and that Paul saw on every street corner (as we today say there is a church on every corner) was a fertility temple. It is not up for guessing what took place inside these fertility temples. We know that their priest and other men even as much as amputated their body part so as to appear more female to the male customers.

clip_image002I recently did a TV program from the ruins of the temple of Cybele. This goddess was considered to be the mother of the gods starting around the 2nd century BC and was very important in Paul’s day.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

gays4jesus: Most homophobes do like Ben did just quote a verse without explanation and assume everyone auto understands it to be describing gays. This “God gave them over” phrase demands an answer to who are the “THEY” people. So let go to the Bible and find out who the “THEY” people are:

Rom 1:18-23 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Verse 18 begins the story and it is a specific story which you cannot insert any group you want because the group is about to be described in detail. Any group you insert must fall into the above and below descriptions if you want to include them in verses 18-32.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (KJV)

The “THEY” people are those that had time in their lives to know GOD. What homophobes do is redefine “glorified him not as God, neither were thankful” so that gays (though they could not be gay if God changed them to gay as Ben’s quoted verse 24-25 would mean). Real gays many are Christian and they Glorify God as defined and acted upon by whatever denomination understanding of that. Gays don’t invent Glorifying it is the denominations that invent a doctrine of Glorifying. Usually it is just a phrase said in church i.e. “I glorify you God” repeatedly. Generally, this phrase and thankfulness is genuine enough and inter-denominational that few contest the form of Glorifying God. So you have 650 million gays many are Christian and going to church and giving Glory to God in like manner and genuiness of heart as the str8 Christian next to them. How does Ben distinguish that these gay Christians are not Glorifying God. Answer is Ben like most homophobe cannot accept that God so loved the world that who so ever believes shall have eternal life. Ben needs to see a gay person change to str8 to be convinced they are now Christian. Thankfulness is also something that is not something hidden away from view. One can say thnk-you and not really mean it, but being Thankful to God is very well established over the last 2000 years and hardly questionable in church when people testify about being thankful to God. How did Ben determine gays doing exactly the same thanking God somehow are not thankful. Ben again has to assume being gay is auto not thankful.

Verse 24 – 25 say God did something. What homophobes tell you is that God made them gay. Or at best they completely disregard the detailed description given in 18-23 who the THEY PEOPLE are and simply assume God manipulated the gay person’s mind so they would start same sex sex and fulfill their evilness. This begs to have explained why gays worldwide and in all history are gay from a very young age. This means that today you have 650 million gays and the fact is they are gay and discover this at very young age, many before 9 some much before 9 and most by puberty. Am I guessing, why should I guess? Do I have facts? Yes, 10s of 1000s of interviews. Many decades of studying and research. Gays many are Chrisstian just like str8s at a very young age, so they “KNEW GOD” they were thankful in the same since str8 Christian operate in thankfulness to God. Gays did not turn from GOD to gods. They did not once know God then stopped knowing him and they did not stop Glorifying GOD. YES as many str8s turn from GOD because of tough life many gays having better reasons because homophobes express that God hate them so often feel that God must hate them and so turn from him. Always will have those that turn from God. But the most do not trun from God. After all he is TRUTH. It is a myth gays are not Christian or can’t be.

God gave them over?? 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity… How did Ben determine the sinful desire? And how did Ben decide it was sexual impurity? Have to exam real FACTS what are gays doing? In the case of this implied verse, it would be sexual. So what is it that gays do sexually? Well to best understand gay sex is to look at yourself the str8 person. Every gay knows everything about str8 sex from the get go. They know you upside down and backwards because you tell them the details of every sex act you do and why you do it. TV, books, stories, history, and much more talks about what str8s do. Str8s and gays know all the good and bad about str8 sexualness. We and you know about your raping, Your dominating your love your dating everything thinkable about str8 sex in a known. Now you knowing str8 sex meaning why and how you started it why can’t you understand gay sex? Once upon a time your body said I want a opposite sex partner. This occurred not because of TV or mommy saying one day you will grow up and get married. What really happened was you found you wanted SEX with the opposite sex. You knew to get this meant you must follow a process. Part of wanting sex is wanting love so don’t get me wrong or assume I am make it all the act of sex and not an act of love. You found at the age of 9 -12 on average you wanted to get it on with the opposite sex. Part of all this is companionship and the warm fuzzys of love. But a good part of it is you want to sex act and what you can do to get it. Often it could mean patiently waiting years. Most of the time as research proves Christians have sex on their first date. Christian str8s often have a number of sexual partners before marrying. Whatever is right or Bible does seem to effect the numbers of sexual partners str8 Christians have before settling down with one for life, again this is still going to produce 60% divorce rate in Christian str8s. The Bible explains marriage is an evolution. If you say the Bible says one person, then why do 100% of the patriarchs in the Bible have a multitude of sexual partner all very legal. The real Bible days (meaning Jesus times) you refer to about marriage is when marriage was a planned by leaders of the family (MEN) and how it would profit each family. The marriage couple had no choice in who they would marry. Using the conditions of marriage in Jesus’ day you can find many Bible gay marriages.

This long rambling I am doing is to point out that you do know that str8s that end up married know very well how they got into bed with their spouse and rarely any str8 Christian condemns (except jokingly) how the finally met their spouse. The most disgusting testimonies are the extremely rare met spouse in junior high and did not have sex till we got married after high school/college. These type ministers teach often the impossibility of the most people real lives to do what that person did. What is also known the type lives these so called purist lived is bazaar at best. Long story short, you know your life so well why can’t you know gay people’s loves and be able to compare it with the verses homophobes use?

Gays in fact discover they are gay about the same age that str8s discover they are str8. Again str8 assume the are str8 (gay do to) but it is the time of life when you begin to want to be with someone that you discover you really are str8 indeed because you got the hots for the opposite sex. Gay don’t have the luxury of forced down them from birth they are str8 and then find at that age they enter heat. Horny reigns whether you want to admit it or not. Yeah, I am exaggerating the point but you know what I mean. Most of you ached in desire to be with someone. You anchored yourself by the phone hoping it would ring and zap, you got that date. Yet you do not call it verse 26-27 shameful lust or vile. You call it puppy love.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

gays4jesus: Before I get sick in that Ben is using a satan counterfeit bible. I must let all you readers know that all modern version Bibles are from Westcott and Hort, these 2 were occultists in the 1880s, they hated KJV with a passion and the colleges of the day were convinced that so called true believers with way behind the time in scientific advancement that the Bible was way wrong and against what science has come to know in those 1800s. Westcott and Hort took the Catholics corrupt Latin Vulgate manuscript (from the 2nd century translation) and translated it into Greek (a bazaar form of it) and then back into English. These 2 were very influential and got their whole translation to become the official Church of England’s Bible where all modern versions comes from. Depending on the Bible version there are 50,000 to 80,000 corruptions designed to take Christ out of Jesus.

Now after my long winded discourse about you knowing str8 sex you need to re-read 26-27 and find the parts that match your life. I bet you will say it is not about you. You say that because even though you did go to bed with other people beside your spouse you consider that part of growing up and settling down and not to serious and if anything a fun source of joking how much of a slut you might have been. Just beside some of you readers may not have had much of a sexual life before your spouse does not make you common, but in fact rare. Saying that makes you more special is senseless because we have 2000 years of Christianity that says playing around before spouse does not seem to change the miracles and blessings and so forth in your life. Crisis happens to anyone blaming your sins often is not the true source. Too many things to compare in life and no pattern that could support less or more blessings and or rewards to receive in Heaven. The pattern that comes out is Christians persecuting Christians, this has had and will have substantial effect on the coming days.

Now knowing yourself and what you call love in your relationship you should be able to compare with gays. Verse 26-27 is a vivid description of something quite strange indeed. It indicates a minimal and orgies. So what in Paul’s day did Paul see or know about that inspired him to write 18-32? Well first of most important is the Bible is the word of God so Paul was inspired by God and cannot write person opinions except those conditioned in him by God from birth. What Paul wrote was what God showed him and inspired him to write and later inspired believers and non-believers to save and later be available to be decided to be put in the Bible hundreds of years later. Paul was instrumental in getting God’s message to us today. It is not as also the rest of the Bible something that can be attributed only to Paul or other writer’s but only by God’s inspiration. However, we have access to all things via internet, false things as well as the truth. This can take time and patient to weed through. Don’t come to me with something you accidently came across by accident. Show me the effort you took to find the background on your surprising revelation. Revelation will never be against the Bible. If you can not show the Bible then it cannot be taught as a revelation by God even if it was a revelation. God’s word is the judge of God’s revelation.

So, what did Paul do and see while in Corinth and Rome? I said earlier he saw a fertility temple on every corner. While in Corinth Paul went into a temple that had over 1000 temple prostitutes this is a FACT. Also many orgy rooms. Sex rituals was done in worshipping the gods of Paul’s day. In that very temple was that very statue to the unknown god. Paul spoke at that temple. It was the largest and most famous temple in Corinth.

Research Paul’s day all you want, you will not find that Paul visited the gay community, (which was not like today because gay was not so separated like today, gays were integrated and though there were as many as 9 Greek words that could be used for real gays, Paul did not use any of them. We cannot easily see any of the Bible writers have any obvious history around real gays. Too see real gays takes more time to find because gays we called by phrases and or terms not easily recognize in our day. All real gays in the Bible at least 5 more obvious and many mentions of gays that you really need to know the times and how gays were discussed in those days.

In the fertility temple sex to gods and goddesses through male and female temple prostitutes were a daily often event. Male temple prostitutes were far more sacred; they often cut off the male part and dressed like women. This does not render transvestites sin. Paul’s concern were Hebrew men went to these temples to have ritual sex with the male temple prostitutes (sodomites in the Greek and Hebrew word):

6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe');from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.

Also for nature and natural: 5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591. 5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

Summarizing: seed and instinct. Meaning in the Greek sentence grammar an apple tree cannot produce oranges when its blossoms come. Born gay you cannot become str8 when dating age comes. “Born gay” is very significant. Because a phrase in Jesus’ day “born eunuch” meant gays. This is not a fly by night wish, but one of intensive research into writings of Jesus day rendering it an absolute. Wishing this phrase can’t mean gays means you fail to study actual facts of Jesus day. All I can do is wish you would. Praying you would heh heh, you won’t want that, because that prayer is going to be answered and you won’t like it.

Gays learn they are gay very young and they like you seek to find someone to share love as you sought and may still be seeking. They make love, they date they fall in love they make a home just like you do. What you are required to do is show the Bible condemning gays that are performing a life like you are performing. You need to show Paul saying I saw a gay couple who have been in love and lived together for these 20 years. They are benefits to the community in many ways with their skills as good supports to the community and they are the best employee of the companies they work at. They take great care of their biological family in crisis and much more good reports. Paul need to condemn these in the Bible so then you can say gay is sin., Now if you go to a gay bar and see gays kissing and holding hands and dancing, you must also go to a str8 bar to condemn such. If you see in that bar 2 gays go to one’s home and they have sex, you have to go to the str8 bar and see the str8 pair go to one of their homes and have sex. This comes behaviors with like behaiviors. Generally no str8 person will condemn a night out in regards to meet someone for companionship or love or simply a good time. Bath houses or other perceived sexual immoralities are extremely common for str8s and so hardly a way to condemn gays because some go to bathhouses. It comes down to what did Paul really talk about? Str8 adults turned from GOD to gods so God gave them over to join in the sexual rituals of the orgies in fertility temples these Hebrew turned to in actual too large of numbers to disregard. Compare apples to apples.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

gays4jesus: 650 million gays in the world and at least that many that have lived and died in history. So these verses should be the simple and clear gay is not sin proof. Gays are about as opposite as you can get from 28-32. They are great leaders, best employees, they take care of your health needs, it is known if gays were banned from the health care field it would collapse. They are pillars in family crisis. The good works as it were of gays can go on in volumes. How does Ben show gays are this reprobate mind and commit these fowl deeds. Most of the list most people are committing in some form or other and more than one in the list. This to be meaningful has to be people that are in great disregard of all morals and gays are not even remotely connected to those disregards. You can always find str8s doing really sick sexual immoral things, gays are human and not exempt from those things str8s do.

Bottom line is if you really want to condemn gays or say the Bible says it not you, then please what manner of method can I request from you to take time to explain how you came to the conclusion a verse condemns gays. Gays are not stupid, as it appears you assume. They know they are not doing what you claim the Bible says they are doing. They know they are doing what you do in the romance department. But you so insist they are raping an in orgies and are prostitutes in fertility temples.

In my 62 years I have yet to find any homophobe take the time to show real gays in the Bible and explain how they got gays into the verses they use. I have interviewed or in some way talk or heard from 800,000 plus homophobes can you be the first to explain how you get gays into a verse?

Posted by Ben at October 1, 2009 2:18 PM

gays4jesus:commented by gays4jesus

Thursday, October 1, 2009 says, “everyone you tell this lie to their blood will be on your hands.”

From: []
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:21 PM
Subject: New Harvest Ministries


gays4jesus: You are not saying “hello” more appropriately from you would have been just “your are going to hell” “hello” is a friendly jester of greeting not of about to attack.
My name is Evangelist Mark Poff and I'm with New Harvest Ministries from Kingsport Tennessee.

gays4jesus: I am John 35 years in the Assemblies of God, weekly preaching on TV since 1985, a Pentecostal 62 year old gay man and been with my lover for 20 years..
I came across your website by mistake.

gays4jesus: God does not make mistakes; you came across my website by his direction. You did not come to me to tell me gay is wrong, you were sent to me so you could hear “gay is not sin and Jesus is not asking the gay person to change and be str8”

I saw where you all believe that a person can be gay and still go to heaven.

gays4jesus: Yes, this took an accumulation of a lifetime of studying. However, it takes less than a few minutes to know many of the verses used against gays does not talk about gays. You see you need to know history and how the ancient Bible words were used in those days. You also need to know how certain GREEK or HEBREW words were written down by Christian ministers that we have today documented. Such as “arsenokoites”. Since Paul and for the next 1600 years it can only be shown to have been used 76 times by Christians. The entire documents by these writers are intact and so their entire writing is preserved so there is no guessing what they wrote. This word used commonly today to mean” gays” was never used for gays but was used for sex out of species. We also know for an absolute FACT Paul walked the streets of Rome and Corinth and it could almost be said there was a fertility temple on every corner, these temples had known “male temple prostitutes”. It is not written that Paul went to real gay couples and observed how they lived. But it is again a known FACT that Paul toured the largest fertility temple and in that temple was the statue to the known god. In that temple as a FACT again was over 1000 temple prostitutes and many orgy rooms. Ritual sex was common and Hebrews turned to these other gods and joined in this ritual sex. This is not guessing or wishing. You as an evangelist should have long ago learned about these temples Paul could see every day from about anywhere he would be.


gays4jesus: I guess I have if you call studying the loosing of one’s mind. Gays just don’t come to Jesus to just find a way to justify anything about their lives. Gays comes to Jesus because “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son” God is “TRUTH” “seek the truth and the truth shell set you free” seeking the truth means doing a lot of studying and research. After all so many Christians condemns gays a gay person often has to really go much deeper in the Bible than str8 Christians.

The bible clearly say for man NOT to
lay with man. For a man to be with a man is SIN, and sin WILL NOT enter heaven.

gays4jesus: this “the Bible clearly says” phrase is so common with homophobes, but missing 100% of the time is to show where it is talking about real gays. 7 of the 14 verses used against gays use the word for “male temple prostitute”. Well gays are not male temple prostitutes and you know this, this is what is so sick about so many homophobes they act so stupid like they think male temple prostitute and gay are the same word.

In the verse:

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (KJV)

The is the original Hebrew. Right in many translations it will tell you often some word the full meaning is not brought over. We know the Greek word love has a few word while English has one word and so English needs more words to explain what kind of love and the Greek just needs the one word and you know the meaning. I Lev. 20:13 the Hebrew word man has a very specific one word meaning that translator don’t bring over. Translators say man, but reading in Hebrew it is “practicing str8 man”. What’s more the entire verse can actually correctly be translated to English 13 ways. 3 of those ways can actually say simply “man” however, using the simple “man” here would destroy and render the verse un-readable by Hebrew readers. The other 10 ways to translate the verse keeps the verse readable in Hebrew, but explain to English readers exactly what kind of man it is. It is a man that has been having sex with women and loves it. One of the men in the Lev. Story is str8. The other man is a “temple prostitute”. The word “abomination” is used in many forms in the OT and the NT and many times. Listing every form of it in the Bible you get quite a list of verses. All but one has the same rendering and that is it just has to be disgusting because it is worshipping other gods. The act must be that of a ritual to other gods specifically.

This is used in the man with man and must include other god rituals:

8441 tow` ebah (to-ay-baw'); or to` ebah (to-ay-baw'); feminine active participle of 8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: KJV-- abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

This is what should have been in the man with man verse if you really wanted it to be just disgusting snf this is how homophobes wants the man with man to mean:

8262 shaqats (shaw-kats'); a primitive root; to be filthy, i.e. (intensively) to loathe, pollute:

KJV-- abhor, make abominable, have in abomination, detest, X utterly. 8262 shaqats (shaw-kats'); a primitive root; to be filthy, i.e. (intensively) to loathe, pollute: KJV-- abhor, make abominable, have in abomination, detest, X utterly.

The Bible is not up to whatever you want to interrupt a word to mean, it has to mean what it did when it was written not what the future will evolve it to mean.

Yes, God loves the sinner but hates the sin.

gays4jesus: Only God can love the sinner and h ate the sin, when man tries this God act he ends up hating the sinner too and worst he persecutes innocent people far too often.
If your message is you can be gay and still go to heave then your WRONG!!!

gays4jesus: My message has tons of research and backup and I am happy to go into as deep as detail as you want concerning history, the ancient language, real gays of today and of Jesus and Moses’ day. My daily hope and prayer is that just one of you homophobes would do the same, but at least 800,000 and now with you 800,001 homophobes later still no concrete results of homophobes studying and presenting their findings. So far I only get these short phrases from homophobes “God says it”, “it’s in the Bible”, “it’s so simple”, “it so clear”, “it’s sin” sometimes one of the 14 verses (invented by a few powerful Catholic leaders 700 years ago to create scan to purge men from power)”, or some other really short phrase avoiding responsible answers to give to gays that you are so sure are going to hell, but somehow you can’t find time to explain how you get real gays into the Bible.

and for everyone you tell this lie to there blood will be on your hands.

gays4jesus: The real FACT about the Bible is a set 1260 days is prepared to spank the Church for 2000 years of disobedience to God. High on that list is the persecuting of innocent people. My ministry is a “Last Days” ministry. I have been preaching on this since 1985 and so have done tons of research. And though you can’t accept it God reveals many things to me concerning his soon return. 3.5 billion people will be killed that you will see happen if you are not one of the 3.5 billion. Christians will think Jesus forsook them because of an event the TWO Witnesses will perform. False doctrines, conditionings and more must be washed from you before the Rapture. You won’t like the coming message from God until you begin to understand you are wrong about many things.
May God Open Your Eyes,
Evangelist Mark Poff

gays4jesus: I am 62 and I did not come to Jesus on a whim. Jesus came to me and devout atheist for 21 years. There was no way I would believe in any god, so I guess something must have change my mind huh? By the way I was never desperate or a drunk or a druggy or broke or anything that would present need for a hope of deliverance fro sad life. I was 100% convinced because of facts and absolutes that gay was not wrong in any way.

Miracles are almost taken for granite by me. I have had 3 dramatic instant healing in my physical body. Answered prayer is normal for me. Impossible prayers often are answered within the hour at times. Christian near and far go out of their way to tell me God is with me. Pastors confide in me. I can right this moment buy a plane ticket and with a promise from several foreign pastor to have 10,000 people within 4 days ready to hear me. I am boasting because I want to give you some basic fact about my life that you will need to explain away. Often homophobes say satan is giving me all this.

At any time I am willing to go to any homophobe church by myself and deal with the gay issue in a challenge. I.E. your “New Harvest Ministries from Kingsport Tennessee” do all you know to bring God presence or message showing gay is sin. You can operate in the Holy Spirit, as your faith believes. Then after I committed to your process as to willing yield to what you believe so that you can administer your faith through the Lord Jesus Christ. It will be my turn after giving you the time you think something should have would have happened. I then will operate in the holy Spirit calling on the name of Jesus. Please please forgive me because I cheat because I know I have the upper hand and know Jesus will move as I speak. I also know he will not move as you speak on this issue.

I kknow homophobe can’t accept such a challenge so hey, at least write back and tell me why you think anyplace in the bible condemns gays. I am again not asking for a verse quote but a efforted study results that produces how you get “sodomite” to be a Jesus Day word for gays and other such support to your belief that gay is sin. I know you cannot find facts about the bible to condemn gays. All you can do is quote a verse you are conditioned to quote and think it is all you need do. You already gave my your short form of hatred, so now give me why you hate gays by breaking down parts of the verse you think condemns gays. Also, I really got to know why all the ex-gay ministries do not change anyone. I have spent lots of research and first hand interviewing of ex-gays and ex-gay leaders and all their doctrines and processes and beliefs from the denominational background. So please be assured I know the background of the gay issue. You can’t even image what wonderful things God has or what blessings he has bestowed on you direct from those you condemn to hell. Gay Christian are a very active part of the Body of Christ and are being prepared to help you as you more than you can realize.