Saturday, October 24, 2009

West Seattle pastors urge rejection of Ref. 71


October 22, 2009

Dear Editor:
Because marriage is the foundation of our society and the first institution created by God, we, as pastors believe in the need to support the institution of marriage as God created it, the union of one man and one woman. As recorded in the Holy Scriptures; “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.” Genesis 2:24 NIV.

gays4jesus: 1st the NIV is a modern version every pastor really needs to do more research on the Bible they choose to use. The Catholics adopted the corrupt version in the 15th century and protestant got the 1st form of it as the official Church of England’s Westcott and Hort’s version. 1946 saw the first modern versions coming from the Church of England’s Bible. The only non-corrupt version is the KJV (not NKJV). Now we have large numbers of versions ranging from 50,000 to 80,000 corruptions that take Christ out of Jesus. As for Gen 2:24 also found in Mark 19 Christians are given a command that nearly all do not obey. The reason for leaving parents is almost never to marry.

IKing 11:3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines

Wives of King David

· I Chronicles 3. In a few sentences it lists all descendants of King David, from his 11 children by 7 wives to descendants of King Solomon, some 30 generations. I Samuel also mentions another wife.

· Eight wives were named in the Bible, but there were numerous other wives that were not named.

· Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, Abigail the Carmelitess, Maachah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, Michal, and Bathshua the daughter of Ammiel.)

2 Sam 5:13 And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David. (KJV)

1 Chr 3:9 These were all the sons of David, beside the sons of the concubines, and Tamar their sister. (KJV)

All the main characters in the Bible that were male just about had many wives and concubines. In the Garden brothers and sisters married. Of course one of the woman that basically saved the Hebrew from destruction was one of a large number of wives of a foreign King. It was Christian legal to have concubines up till the 11th century. Today’s style of marriage is direct from pagan customs. Marriage of Jesus’ day was nearly completely planned from birth for family profit. That legal system made women property. Comparing today’s marriage with the past is not all that good because it means all Christians are not in a Bible marriage. For Christians to think the way they marry today is of god means they have to accept marriage evolution.

Matt 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (KJV)

If God joined 2 people how can you try to put asunder it? 2000 years of Christianity and marriage evolution, making a quick statement like as to render marriage as you wish it just is not Bible or real life in the Christian community. If you base the correct way on an impossible to fulfill ideal (because we have the record in the Bible and outside the Bible) then how can you legislate others when you cannot even get a decent percentage of Christians following what you claim is Bible marriage. Now real Bible Hebrew and Greek the Language and the grammar also defines people that are quite gay and quite legitimate in God’s eye with no condemnation. Intense research into language use of Jesus’ day can 100% prove Jesus used a phrase that was talking about real gays and that a lot of Christians could not accept what he was saying.

The Apostles also stated at one point “it is not good for man to marry” I am not saying marriage today be str8s is wrong or against God, I am saying real life fact is today’s customary marriage almost worldwide comes from pagan fertility rituals for marriage.

We also believe that under marriage, the institution of the family is the next most important institution of our society and one of the main reasons God created marriage.  We believe that children need both a mother and a father and same sex marriage denies them of either one or the other. 

gays4jesus: Here you effectively condemned single parents that have lost a spouse due to death (besides the 60% to divorce) many are single parents because of nothing to do with any hint of immorality. Now your statement places them with gays in your stated pronouncement against 71. God is quite remarkable and has a lot of people that would call the Catholic Church run by Masons and evil men for most of its existent. I got so much info about the Vatican and Catholic leaders and it is available with little effort. Generally, in Protestant circles they broadly condemn Catholic as a belief system and often are not that polite about it. Calvary Chapel is a good example. You got 2 vastly different Christian systems working together almost as though satan and Jesus working together for common good. It is like joining the enemy just because they hate the same group of people. When God said Adam and EVE

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. (KJV)
Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. (KJV)

gays4jesus: The Bible so vaguely goes over marriage, that it is amazing the Church develops such a detailed doctrine about marriage based on almost no info. Women did not seem to have a problem becoming wives of sons of God.

Other books of very ancient days goes into lots more detail. But, when we read the Bible about most marriages we find most have many wives and they also produce babies with their slaves even wives having competition using their own slaves girls. Once King David was extremely depressed and his staff brought him a young girl for sex. David did not have her, but not because he would have refused her, but he said the country is being lost how could he enjoy sex while the country falls apart.

Yes many great and wonderful real life marriages and families but also, Christians have been about a worst as humans can get concerning the supposed reason to get married “to have kids”. Church history has a great deal of facts about Christian dropping their kids off on church doorsteps abandoning them. Today, the streets are filled with kids that hate home in these as you say God ordained marriages. You can’t even manage them or help them or these families but, you seem to find plenty of time to wreck gay families. What really is it that you don’t like? Gays do not get in your way at all. Str8s get married and there is no interference. Bu, yes remember Christians in the south said if a white person talk a black person to read it was a sin and no black was allowed to preach even to themselves. The church over the last 2000 has always been looking for innocent ones to persecute and you are deep in persecuting the innocent ones too.

It is important to realize that Ref. 71 is a cloak and dagger attempt to overturn our state’s Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which defines marriage as between one man and one woman.  Proponents of Ref. 71 have stated that same sex marriage is their ultimate goal.

gays4jesus: Cloak and dagger?? You mean people like you that believe the false doctrine that gay is sin petitioned churches with readymade signers preaching sign the petition to make a law that states what you want. The law was not there before what it is is you want to keep that law that was a hate law made by Christians that refuse to study the bible on the verses they use to condemn gays. Gay is not sin and you cannot show it. I know you cannot. I personally had talked or had contacts with over 800,000 homophobes. I stop adding several years ago maybe over a decade ago. Not one of them had done more than say God hates it, it’s in the Bible it’s so simple and clear or they just quote a verse saying read it yourself as though I have never read it. I have been on TV over 25 years talking about these verses and much more on this issue. Once before Oregon homophobes came to Seattle to try to pass a law that would force the gov’t to fire gays and if anyone hid gays they also would be fired. It became infamous because there was a flap on the petition that hid that the bill would also include minority races and that it would class all these too and not just the gays as having sex with animals. The flap was discovered and the petition thrown out. Same sex marriage is an identical process as any other human rights issues anywhere in the world and throughout history. There are steps people take to gain these human rights. Blacks fought long and hard and slowly decade-by-decade even century by century gain something close to equal rights. Women fought for the right to vote and scary that was in the 1900s nearly our modern day. The process is well time tested process. You change things either by war or by standing up for your rights. At first people, get killed for it. Then it begins to be accepted. Marriage between races was fought against by the same sort of people you are. Probably you don’t like it but at least you will not deny a black person from marrying a white person right? It was not long ago, I am even old enough to remember those days.

However, it is mute; you cannot stop what is right. What you find in human rights efforts is God is always on the side of the persecuted innocent ones. Church history shows the Church always had people to persecute. You sure don’t learn well that they does not go over well with God, though very patient God does not hold back forever. Country by country state by state legal marriage acts are put on the books. It is getting close to the point where the remaining states will see that it just is no longer worth the fighting since so many other states have gay marriage laws. It’s a matter of time. In 1985 online in Christian chat rooms first AOL then YAHOO mostly (there were many Christian chat rooms in both) I was in them every day with my screen name “gays4jesus” in 1985 (also the years I went on TV every week) there were no other gays or openly gay people in those rooms, so when I entered them I took over, not that it was my intentions, but because homophobes saw my screen name and so began attacking. In 1985 I already was well aware of the verses and the bible in detail on this topic, I knew the truth. I knew the history I knew the words and how they were used I knew present day gays and historic gays, I knew homophose had nothing but lies to say about gays and they would never back up what they say like if you read this you also will not back up what you say. All you are doing is saying you do not want gays to marry because you believe that is God’s will. ^50 million gays tell me how do you know God’s will for gays. Do you go to gay churches? Do you walk a mile in their shores? What do you do to show gays are the evil peoples you claim the verses are talking about? You don’t and you won’t. I can beg you for decades and you won’t spend any time at all studying about gays. You have 700 years of conditioning that you auto responded with.

Ref. 71 is strategically crafted to accomplish this by doing what similar legislation has done in other states, such as California passing legislation that places domestic partners on par with marriage, then filing a lawsuit to compel the courts under the equal protection amendments to overturn DOMA and redefine marriage to include same sex couples.  If it wasn’t for the voters of California passing Prop. 8, California would have same sex marriage.

gays4jesus: You just don’t get it do you. You attack; gays are not going to take a back seat to those that persecute them anymore period. It is a machine now. Not to take the humanness out of it but it is a mechanism that God set so that the innocent can have a say and get changes made. You can’t stop it. You can fight it and win battle, but you can’t win the war. Gay is not sin. You see up to now secular gays having been doing most the groundwork. Christian gays pray and make websites and get strengthen in the Lord like str8 Christians by going to church. In 1967 God gave Catholic gays priests in 1968 God gave protestant gays pastors. In 1969 God gave power to secular gays. Most gay Christian still have no clue what God really is doing as he prepares them to help you the persecutor keep your faith in the coming days when satan’s deception come to full force. What is missing and being held back is the on fire for god gay Christians, The Pentecostal gay Christians. Once God set them free to go forth you will see God moving openly for gays. This is finally about to happen. Gay Pentecostals time has come you will soon see. Here to for you have had total freedom to not have God intervene. Now just a handful of unknown gays that don’t even know each other exists will step forward and operate in their calling. Mountain will move for them. You have not seen the numbers of people that will be healed that are about to be healed. But, als,o you have not seen God directly moving on homophobes giving them warning to make a choice, it will not go easy Jesus has been longsuffering for this time. He has been waiting to go and answer the prayer of those persecuted by Christians like yourself.

The definition of marriage, that being between the union of men and women, has existed in every culture and society since the beginning of humankind.   Even in cultures that had affirmed the overt practice of homosexuality, the definition of marriage was never changed to include same sex couples.

gays4jesus: also in every culture, gays were present and in fact most culture held them as sacred. You condemn all gays based on sacred male temple prostitutes. Fertility prostitution is very specific to a religion. Paul saw a fertility temple on every corner, he actually went inside one that had over 1000 temple prostitutes and in that temple was the statue to the known god. 650 million gays today are not temple prostitutes in a fertility temple. And 99.9% if not all these fertility prostitutes’ customer were str9 males and Paul was specifically addressing Hebrew men that went to them. All those Hebrew men were married to women. There is so much detail about these fertility temples but somehow you get Paul to be talking about ordinary gays. Where is your information that Paul was talking about gays. You won’t produce it will you?

In Jesus’ day Greek was often spoken. Hebrew as well. These languages uses words that do not match up to today’s words like marriage. In Jesus day a spouse of the man of the house, as it were gay or str8 owned the woman through a family to family contract from usually birth. There were plenty of exceptions as deal went broke down, or the wife as it were “got raped” or something so she was not a profit any more. Hebrew has evolved and even Hebrew speaking people would not be able to understand some words. I have talked to experts and did personal research and many Hebrew speaking people use modern English translations and have the same conditioning the Catholic started in the 13th century that the Hebrew word sodomite means gays:
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean. 6942 qadash (kaw-dash'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): KJV-- appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied oneself,), X wholly. 6943 Qedesh (keh'-desh); from 6942; a sanctum; Kedesh, the name of four places in Palestine: KJV-- Kedesh.

This is the key word in 7 of the 14 (some say 16 two verse do talk about women in addition to the 14 verses) verses people use to say gay is sin. Modern Hebrew forgot this documented ancient meaning. This word did not have meaning 1, meaning 2, meaning 3 and so on in Jesus day or Moses day. The word meant “male temple prostitute” in Bible days.

Knowing Greek and Hebrew means often something that needs lots of background understanding to understand what verses are talking about. The word slave and the word servant are not like we understand it today. The grammar placement of these words is important too. We like to stir anything up to make what we want to be, but ancient Hebrew and Greek it was not how sentences are manipulated. I am trying to put background into learning how this word “marriage” we used today meant back in NT/OT days. There is so much ancient writings this is not guesswork or wishing it is how it was in those days. Your wife was not for romance and sexual pleasure. She was for profit. Christians translated it to mean “sex for pleasure and love” was not allowed. Sex was to multiply period. But it was Christian legal to have concubines up to the 11th century and to have mistresses as well for love and romance. Generally, pagan influence changed Christians into the style we love today. Namely, “nobody tells me who to marry I decide this”.

So when you know when you place in a sentence “My Servant” then in next sentence or two “My Slave” every listener to that would know yo are talking about the person you are legally married to. Once you know this, you suddenly open a vast reservoir of info that shows a number of gay marriages in the Bible.

3816 pais (paheece); perhaps from 3817; a boy (as often beaten with impunity), or (by analogy,) a girl, and (genitive case) a child; specifically, a slave or servant (especially a minister to a king; and by eminence to God): KJV-- child, maid (-en), (man) servant, son, young man.

The Greek word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner. In that culture, if you were a gay man who wanted a male “spouse,” you achieved this, like your heterosexual counterparts, through a commercial transaction — purchasing someone to serve that purpose. A servant purchased to serve this purpose was often called a pais.
Homophobe must fight against REAL ancient day words to come up with their modern day interpretations. I just put a few things in on this topic that has an incredible amount of documentation of those ancient days. The above describe the common practice of str8 marriages showing gays also married the same way. You never have God condemning that day’s marriage process. Today that way to marry is completely illegal and probably all of today’s Christians would think how you got married in Jesus day is an outrage and of course should be illegal. What’s more it was extremely common to be married by 14 -16 years old and one of the spouses could be a lot older, so there is a double whammy in today’s Christian thinking about what was legal in Jesus day and no hint of God or Jesus condemning it. I am not giving my opnion on rightness or wrongness what I am doing is showing quote “
the definition of marriage was never changed to include same sex couples” is a very unhistorical statement and is not Bible.

We believe that changing the definition of marriage puts our society and nation at great risk, taking us down an untested path and defying God’s design. 

gays4jesus: Gays have been married forever. Gays are not a new thing and they did not just start getting married. The Church did a premeditated DISOWNING OF the gay member of the Body of Christ. History has a ton of stories about gays. Nations in history became at risk when Christians began to rule. The roman empire (I am not giving praises to them, just getting facts straight about the above statement) thrived for many centuries, it was not until Christian began to rule it that the Roman empire crumbled. What is taking us down the untested path to putting us at great risk is joining will all religions for common good and common task. United Religions UR is an example. Rev Moon is a huge example and most Christians are supporting him and not knowing it, many Christian leaders act directly with Moon. Moon has paid off a lot of Christian financial debt too. Lost behind series authors, Paul Crouch, and many well-known Christians chaired Moon’s board for a season. I can go on very long on how modern Church is working hand in hand with satan. I personally toured a Buddhist temple in Hualien Taiwan. Talk about state of the art tech. I was given a personal tour and the monk explain their main mission about joining all religions and he showed many many things backing it up and what religions were involved Christians were very involved. Gays on the other hand were amputated from the Body of Christ in the mind of the Church leaders and since then the Church as a whole has gotten very sick as it is trying to function missing a vital part. God has grafted that part back in and the Church is healing. Soon gay Christians will be established and restored enough to fill their part in the Body of Christ as intended.

Because of these reasons, we urge the people of West Seattle to reject Ref. 71, so that the institution of marriage, family and society may be preserved. 

gays4jesus: Str8 marriage will never go away and it will never need preserving. 90% are str8, how can 10% be an issue? Life will not change for str8 families except many taking out hating 650 million people just because they are gay. Voting against 71 means you are voting against 650 million people and 1 billion 300 million parents who must think their children are going to hell or when they go to church have to hear their beloved pastor condemn their children every time he needs an example of sin which so often seems to have to be using gays as another word for sin. Sibling can double that number easily to a total of ½ the world population directly is affected because you say gay is sin. Why can’t pastors do math? ½ the world’s population is intently affected directly by an anti-gay message. Most are forced to believe gay is sin even gays because how many people take time to study the facts in ancient words and ancient writings and actually history. Today it is a lot easier because most of us have access to just about all knowledge so have little excuse.

Our recommendation is not done in spite or aimed at the oppression of others, but out of love.  Love being that of desiring the highest good for all the men, women, and children in our community, both now and for generations to come.

gays4jesus: God alone can hate the sin and love the sinner, Jesus came because God so loved the sinner that he sent Jesus to pay the price of ALL sins committed by people. Can you die for the gays you say you are loving. You absolutely would not, how can you say you act in love. We have detailed explanation of love in the Bible.

1 Cor 13:1-13 1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (KJV)

The highest good to you would mean, 650 million people fired, children that are gay seeing no hope by people like you that give no explanation how you get gays into the Bible. Being gay, it is so very easy to see we are not gang rapists like you say in Gen. 19, we are not male temple prostitutes like you say in several verses. We do not join fertility ritual orgies like you tell us we are doing. You teach parents to disown their gay children or know only their children are going to hell. The cost t America financially will be tremendous because many of you don’t want the name marriage used for gays so a double legal system is being set up to do exactly the same as marriage costing the Gov’t twice but more in set up processes. Gays more than are a benefit to the community in health care alone. They are often pillars in family crisis. Business owners say gays are their best workers. You do oppress words to justify you are not is not REAL life. You are not doing in spite you are doing in hatred as love is a behavior so is hate. By your acts you show hatred, love does not behavior as you do toward gays.

Once again, please vote to REJECT Ref. 71.

gays4jesus: Vote no and you continue joining in the circle of lies against innocent people. Before voting (of course this specific measure is already done by the time most of you will read this) but take time go to sites that give the other side of the story. Invite Christian gays to speak and give account of their faith in Jesus Christ. Gays are as different as str8s, There is no real life style as with str8s. Every facet of life is represented, every religion, every denomination, every culture, every interests group so don’t lump 650 million gays in to one groups and say gay lifestyle. Lots of stereotypes topics are heaped onto all gays, Hells Angels are str8 shall we say all str8s are represented by the values of the motor cycles gang named Hells Angels? All gays do not support abortion but many str8 support abortion, shall we say all str8s even Christian str8 supports abortion? So, when you get an issue to vote on or decide on remember like str8s gays are individuals with great diversity. If you are Pentecostal, don’t go to Mormon gays and expect to see your basic doctrines in operation. Go to a gay Pentecostal church so you can see mostly no difference in general doctrines. Catholics judge yourselves go to Catholic gays and etc. don’t just say the word gay and so put your worst pet peeves into all gays. The verses are another issue, use a verse back up your usage with FACTS. Gays are not sodomites.

clip_image004 Father John Madigan Rev John Madigan, Holy Rosary Church click name to email
gays4jesus: This person is Catholic why should below Pastor Randy Leskovar join with whom plenty of info show Calvary is not exactly bed buddies with the Vatican. But, they put their names together for West Seattle’s churches against gays rights as Pastor Sam Seumae also did.

Pastor Sam Seumae, The Way Church of God

gays4jesus: I am not sure who is “Sam” in the pictures, their website does not indicate. This pastor has his name

Pastor Randy Leskovar , Calvary Chapel West Seattle Email:
gays4jesus: I could not find a picture of this guy although he may have one on and to get into his profile you have to be asked how you know him. Randy has been out spoken before so easy to see more about him speaking against gays.

Two people made comments on this ref 71 article by the above 3 pastors/priest
others are making comments each day

October 22, 2009 - 8:17pm

#1 ├člink to comment page


Ref 71

I agree. I am a believer in God and Jesus Christ. Sadly, I am not a citizen of this country. It is a tough world we live in, but I stand by God on every subject. I will continue to voice my opinion to reject Referendum 71. Thank you for your encouraging words. Not many people are willing to speak out against same sex marriage and same sex domestic partnership.
gays4jesus: Not many?? Hmm if this were true we would have gay marriage decades ago.. Even not a citizen of the USA let alone Washington State and have to speak on a local issue, Just don’t complain when gays are standing up for their rights and traveling to support such cause around the world. It worlds bothways.
October 22, 2009 - 8:41pm
#2 ├člink to comment page
I have raised my children like most, if not all, Catholics to show the love and compassion as Christ have for all human kind. My 8 year old child asked, "Daddy why do people hate gays?". Hate is a powerful word we don't our children to use in a very subjective sentence. A question that openned my eyes and pondered, why do they? I may not agree how homosexuals live their lives but I cannot tolerate hate in our family prayers. Ref 71 is not just about a threat to our religion nor a foundation of this country. It is about just and equality for all tax payers of this state. The homosexuals are the tax payers who also supported our childrens schoold districts. They are our teachers, our doctors, our policeman and woman, fire fighters and military offense and defences that protected all of us (in every Christian, non-Christian denomination and NON-CITIZENS like the first person that commented). These are the tax payers of the state that also contibuted in our community. Good or bad, we as children and servants of God need to learn to be humble. As Christ stated those who have not sinned shall cast the first stone. I honestly can't. So I answered, "I don't think people hates gays sweetheart I believe it is misunderstanding and ignorance." I support Ref-71 not because of the homosexuals but also to extend the medical rights and obligations to our heterosexual senior citizens.
gays4jesus: This is the very least to be expected from Christians and I thank this person, though admitting probably to thinking gay is sin this person understands it is not up to them to judge but to love others. This person’s behavior though is not pro-gay as it were is of love because this person recognizes gays are decent folk and are people needing the same rights and this person saw it also represents the elderly’s rights where marriage is not realistic, but rights are.

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