gays4jesus: This unknown person wrote me about his urges it to compare to gays.
well if that is the case I guess homosexuals are aliens.
I know my own sins are brought on by being tempted. When I happen to park the TV on BET on a nasty rap video instead of crusing on through and start getting nasty thoughts, thats when desire is fueled....
When I see a half-naked woman on the cover of Cosmo magazine while waiting in line at the grocery thats when my desire is fueled....
gays4jesus: Talk about the tragedy that the Catholic church mainly and much of Christianity, especially from the 11th century on we live in guilt because if it is sexual we are sinning. What this guy is explaining is what humans do and God created in us because the name of the game is meet someone called a “helpmeet”
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (KJV)
5828 `ezer (ay'-zer); from 5826; aid: KJV-- help. 5048 neged (neh'-ghed); from 5046; a front, i.e. part opposite; specifically a counterpart, or mate; usually (adverbial, especially with preposition) over against or before: KJV-- about, (over) against, X aloof, X far (off), X from, over, presence, X other side, sight, X to view.
The form that makes this happen is slangly called “horny”. We can give it more decent names like “I want to get married”, “I want to meet someone”, “I want to go on a date”< “I want romance”, and other phrases that would mean getting together and eventually marrying someone. To assign sin to what is a built in (by God) nature of humans is like stop breathing. The sin we like to refer to is:
Matt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (KJV)
This is a pretty abused scripture. Marriage in those days this would be breaching a marriage contract for profit between two families (husbands) that were relatives of each other. Lusting would tarnish the contract, as would be like raping. In those days thinking about it would be like raping the other man’s wife which defiles her more than the raper.
Looking on a potential sexual partner has a very specific biochemical action in the brain. Studies in detail on this can be seen in documentaries and read online. Science knows eye sees chemical reaction in the brain occurs, glands operate as designed. Stinky parts smells good now and much more. When you try to control this you create other chemical reactions that is out of sink which can result in harm. I am not intending to detail what happens in your body when you look on a person that makes you horny. Just want to say the Bible is not talking about your built in operations to find a mate. Our control should be, nice but that person is not available and neither am I but wow hot they are so what. Magazines are as evil as you make them to be in your mind. Magazines are a business fact, you can let them rule your life and associate it to the lies about sex from so much conditioning from mainly the Vatican and other higher influential church leaders over centuries or you can think “she’s cute” and finish paying for the food you bought.
To use your hornyness to imply it is a comparison to gays simply wanting to meet a lover is like you applying lust and vile passion to marriage sex.
But its pretty hard to think nasty thoughts when you are in full communion with Christ in prayer...
gays4jesus: thinking about the wonderful physical aspect of love with the one you love is not “nasty” and communion with your spouse with Jesus at an alter together is a wonderfull way to remember Jesus till he returns.
In fact The MCC church was once offered to give communion at a church convention (yes a gay church is part of clergy gatherings of str8 churches) They in fact called people to come up for communion with their spouses (gay or str8) and this astounded the str8 clergy that is was so wonderful an idea to be with your loved one having communion give you together. Your “nasty” is from conditioning not Bible.
Talulah (apparently a female he was writing to), whenever we talk about these types of subjects your comments always go back to a slant that gives me a feeling that its impossible to resist urges....
gays4jesus: it was designed to be resisted, when you get the urge you want water or food you just eat or drink. Well sex is not water or food as such and has perimeters and boundaries and rules of engagements that evolve with time. We can weigh those urges as to how to go about as it were satisfying that hunger. Societies offers guidelines that are acceptable. Usually hang out where you can meet someone in a casual way, church, dance, party, interests groups, etc. Then be friendly in a decent manner hoping to be asked for a date or asking for a date. I am being very simple here because so many lies about as you say it “urges” are causing people much anguish. The line is to be drawn when you begin to go outside the boundaries of your customs. There really is no need to talk about extremes like gang rape or rape or other completely radical departures from the customary processes of dating. In Jesus day there were strict customs, other cultures have different customs, but generally love finds ways and God is not standing next to you with a club. He in fact is there because he loves you and wants you to have joy and happiness.
#1 if you just desire a relationship with someone you are not a homosexual. I love my father and I have a relationship with him.... but that doesn't mean I have the desire to have sex with him. A relationship without homosexual sex or sexual desire, is not a homosexual relationship. If you like hanging out with people of the same sex, that doesn't even mean you are a homosexual.
gays4jesus: this guy is really trying to deal with issues for sure.
#2 Desiring sex with women is sin if you are a woman,
gays4jesus: this statement requires Bible details and explanations of verses used to come up with lesbian is sin. The Bible does not condemn lesbianism at all. (Note: again based on we are not talking about gang rape, rape and other abusive acts, these are issues that have no sexual orientations)
or sin if you are a man, and that woman is not your wife.
gays4jesus: you base “desiring” to your “urges” and so again you are in the wrong. You personally may have a problem with urges, but otherwise it is a misnomer to related desires to sin. As you state desiring a married woman may actually be no more than a what if game and hey sure she is cute so what, and so what if it get junior excited a little. Again, the lusting after another man’s wife is a much more serious thing.
2 Sam 11:2 And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon. (KJV)
This sort of thing led to murdering her husband. You can piece together the sort of things that are the lusting God is talking about. God is not talking about your daily whims of sexual interests that would never ever lead to anything other than a passing thought. You are a sexual creature and it is a biochemical thing that is provable and has been proven. It is for the insurance that you will find a mate and love and because it is functioning as designed doesn’t mean you can call it sin.
It can be no plainer than that. 1 Corinthians 6:9 is quite clear that homosexuality is sin.... the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is quite clear on that...
gays4jesus: Here again is the typical homophobic response and not a hint on how you get gang rape to mean gay is sin or how you get a word that means “male temple prostitute” to mean homosexual. Since Pual wrote this word :
1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (KJV)
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.
There has been 76 documented by Christian writers that use that word for the next 1600 years. Each time that word was use there were two possible explanations given. One nothing was given to indicate a meaning in the entire document as to what sort a person was the “arsenokoites”, the other explanation was “sex out of species”. 1600 years and there is no not even any other documentation on “arsenokoites” yet so many Christian base gay is sin on arsenokoites. In Paul’s day there were 9 Greek words to define gays, Paul chose a word that means the same as the Hebrew counterpart:
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
In 1850 at a USA clergy convention they discussed this verse 1 Cor 6:9 and all agreed as taught no one would be in heaven (they taught it to mean masturbators would not inherit) so they desided to find another group to be the “arsenokoites” and since gays were already condemned with 12 other verses (in which 5 used the word sodomite) they thought no one would care so they started from then on to teach gays won’t inherit. Then in 1946 the first modern version Bible hit the shelve and the two Greek words were removed and homosexual inserted. (note: all modern versions comes from Westcott and Hort’s translation).
and the opening of Romans is quite clear on that.
gays4jesus: Romans 1:18-32 is about str8 adults turning from GOD to gods. God gave them over to go to fertility temples and join in with the ritual sexual orgies conducted to those gods. You have to be str8 first if it were to be condemning gays and you would have to have known God first and then turn from him and this in not what gays do and gays were always gay. And gay behaviors do not match verse 28-32 either they are quite opposite those listed sins. Paul actually went into a fertility temple that had over 1000 temple prostitutes and in that temple was also that status to the unknown god.
I did a TV program from the ruins of the temple of the “mother of the gods” (Cybele) which the religions of Paul’s centered around and was prevalent since the 2nd century BC.
Instead of defending the person who just can't escape urges lets just get to the point.
gays4jesus: got to ask the question if there is no way out of something could it be we got it wrong. If the facts shows 69% of quite provable Christians have sex on the first date, could it be we are not listening to God but instead listening to are teachers without doing any homework to see if your amen should be kept or removed for your teacher.
Nothing causes us to act on temptation. We have a choice (we are not robots or animals). A temptation does not become a sin until we encourage it in our mind, or we act upon it.
gays4jesus: Now you compare your “urges” to “temptations”:
temptation 3986 peirasmos (pi-ras-mos'); from 3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity: KJV-- temptation, X try.
Urge 1758 enecho (en-ekh'-o); from 1722 and 2192; to hold in or upon, i.e. ensnare; by implication, to keep a grudge: KJV-- entangle with, have a quarrel against, urge.
Temptation is more on the line of being set up to do something and urges comes from within you to do something. Each of them you can manage, but for different reasons. Both have their good and evil side. If you are talking strictly of the evil side of each you should address it not assume if it is an urge it is evil or if it is a temptation it is evil. What you are trying to talk about is gay is sin and so if a gay person feel gay and does something meaning date it is sin. You are hymning and hawing around the bush at your own problems with your own sexuality and so you extend that to as the problem gays have so you think getting control like you do your battle when you see women’s pictures you think gays can work through wanting to be with a same sex partner.
So we are back to my first statement. Unless homosexuals are some kind of aliens,
gays4jesus: well they might be some sort of aliens to the likes of you because you don’t seem to have the ability to know the sameness they are to str8s and you are applying healthy str8 dating and romancing type behaviors that gays do because in sex gays and str8s are very similar and it the horrid str8 sex act that you relate gays to. You want all gays to be in the field of the evil side of str8 sex when they are just as behaving in healthy sexual (dating/marrying) practices that as it were healthy str8s do. It is your sick perverted thoughts that turn ordinary gay behaviors into being the same as the abusive str8 sex that is all too common.
the methods heterosexuals use to escape sinful thoughts and sinful actions can work in the mind of a homosexual....
gays4jesus: this statement means str8 should stop sex and can and if they do then gays should stop too. What you refer to is behavior modification techniques, which the ex-gay ministries are doing. Ex-gay ministries had their beginnings in the early 70s and up to today do not work, all of the techniques used to change gays or even just to get them to abstain does not work. I have interviewed even the more stubborn ex-gay claiming he was changed only within a few questions showing there has been no change just denial. If you want to stop smoking some ways has good results, but we know smoking is harmful because of the facts that came from decades of research. Where is your research about gays? There are lots of studies and research and more concerning gays and it is always that gay is healthy and not sin. Gays rights movement (is secular and should not be associates with Christian gays) following history’s rights movements in the stages rights movements takes, a great deal education folk and court action to force racists and bigots into treating people with dignity and respect. Things are getting more evil because gay rights are happening, gay rights is a long term effort and any persecuted group stand up and works hard over a very long time to get human rights. Because gays no longer allow blatant condemnation does not make it out of bounds as they follow the same approach that any segment of society follows. Today blacks are not fully equal in a lot of people’s eyes, but hey compared to not that long ago it is amazing. Gays also are progressing to that point. Comparing gays to sex with animals as some Christian groups do, case in point the infamous flap in Seattle as a anti-gay Christian group from Portland came to get a bill passed to take rights away from gays. They wanted gays to be classed as sex with animals including adding on many minority races into that bill not just gays and this flap that had that info was turned over so could not be read as signatures were gathered..
sinful action? 14 to 18 verses (there a couple verses that have applied to lesbians to get up to 18) to say gays thoughts move to sinful actions means you need to explain how you get this idea, it comes from 700 years of conditioning when a new doctrine was invented to specifically purge from power leaders that did not have the same ideals and the influential Catholics. So where is your info about how you got any verse to say gay is sin?
Make sense? (and don't get me wrong I know everyone isn't the same, but there is a way out of sinful thoughts and sinful actions, or else the bible is a fraud when it says \"God won't give us a temptation we cannot handle\")
gays4jesus: Then if God won’t give us temptation that we can’t handle why is there 700 million gays or soon to be according to statics and population)? Why do ex-gay ministries don’t work? Why does God bless gays? Why is gay civil rights now coming state to state for full marriage rights? A ton of questions. And the Bible is not a fraud so what does that mean? Someone is wrong! WHO? This is the question you should be asking yourself. Why do homophobes have to lie, they brought all sorts of false accusations on Jesus.
Matt 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; Matt 26:60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, (KJV)
It took some doing to get enough false witnesses to bring Jesus to Pilot, and also we have lies lies and more lies about about gays comes out of the mouths that are saying God hates gays or gay is sin, or gays needs to be at least abstinent. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and the result is as in accepting Jesus we recognize we are sinners and here Jesus died and paid the price which would for us be eternal death in outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Instead, we feel joy seeing there is a way out through Jesus Christ by his paying that price on the Cross. Conviction includes a way out, guilt has no way out. Homophobes lay guilt trips on gays and many gays struggle for a very long time because they think God hates them since they are not changing. Gays do not go to ex-gay ministries for fun, they go because they believe God hates them unless they change and be str8 or get help to abstain. This really does lot of harm to many gays because they find they aren’t and can’t change and so God must really hate them or there is no hope for them and the leave Jesus behind. Many gays come to realize gay is not sin and that truth sets them free and they go on in life loving Jesus keeping the faith.
Why does it need to be all so often a crisis in a homophobes life to get them to see gay is not sin? Homophobes often needs something like finding out one of their kids is gay. Almost all homophobe needs a life changing experience, a tragedy, or other major event that disrupts their before they will take the time to really see if gay is sin or not. Pastors are telling parents their kid is going to hell because their kid is gay. What a shame that this is how a lot of parent accepts their gay kids. It does not have to be this way; true deliverance can be seen in groups like PFLAG where you have long-term facts about homophobes that was delivered of that false belief.
No comments:
Post a Comment