Sunday, September 6, 2009

My Comment of Pre-Trib

Gays For Jesus comments on an article that goes over the start of the Rapture.
That article’s title:

Is the Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church sound Bible doctrine?


The Rapture, when
the dead in Christ shall rise...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Rick Brentlinger Answers -

I received some questions recently, which I will answer with a brief overview of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture plus Links for additional study.

"I was wondering why some evangelical Christians propose this idea regarding the Rapture of the Christian Church (faithful believers in Christ) that supposedly will occur before, during or after Christ returns.
I don't recall reading about this idea from any of the early Church fathers in Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox Christianity before the 19th century.
Have any of the early Church fathers before the 19th century commented on this idea? When I studied about where this idea came from, I read from one scholar that the concept of the Rapture stems from John Darby around 1827. Is this true?"

I believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture

Throughout church history, beliefs about the end times have varied from (1) a-millenial (most Roman Catholics) to (2) post-millenial (many Puritans and Calvinists) to (3) pre-millenial (some Donatists and Anabaptists, some Puritans, many Baptists, Independents and Non-Conformists) to (4) pre-tribulational (many dispensational Baptists and Independents) to (5) mid-tribulational (some Charismatics including Pat Robertson) to (6) post-tribulational (some Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists like Rousas Rushdoony), not necessarily in that order.

Gays4jesus: well I am and has been a Pentecostal since Jan. 1974 and been around the block a few times on this subject. Charismatic sort of a alternative name for Pentecostal over all believe in pre-trib Rapture. This means almost as specific as at the moment of the Rapture the Trib also begins. As for my 25 years preaching weekly on TV the barometer of Christian belief stems around Christian will not go into the TRIB.

I believe personally that at most all Christians, that stay alive and don’t turn their backs on Jesus, will for sure go through 1260 days of the TRIB and up to an additional maximum of 75 more days.
It is sometimes alleged that belief in the Pre-Trib Rapture, when Jesus comes to take Christians out of the world BEFORE the Tribulation starts, only began around 1827 with John Darby or 1830 when Margaret MacDonald, of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Edinburgh, Scotland, had a prophetic vision during the Edward Irving revival.
Contrary to that false assertion, pre-millenial and pre-tribulation beliefs are found throughout Church History, beginning in the Bible in the first century A.D.

Gays4jesus: this information would require much more effort to find, it is simply not readily available in most Christian history that pre-trib doctrines were even in any pockets of belief. The facts of Darby and Margaret are easily available and it is those two that really got this sort of document to take hold. Left out of the above both were much into the occult. 1st century Christians generally believed Jesus would come back in their day. Good information to know some belief existed in that far past, but it is not that easy to show the documentation. In Darby enhancing the pre-trib doctrine was in the 1840s Margaret’s dream (vision) was the 1830.

Important Rapture Passages

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
-1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, around 51 A.D.

This is the classic passage on the Rapture. Some people say that since the word Rapture doesn't appear in our English Bibles, it couldn't possibly be true. The fact is, Rapture is an English word and English words were not used in the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts of our Bible.
Our English word Rapture comes from the Latin Version of the Bible, rapio, rapere, raptus, meaning to be caught up, snatched up, carried away. The Greek word, used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is, harpazo, meaning, to seize, to carry off by force, to eagerly claim for oneself, to snatch away.

Gays4jesus: in other words the Greek is saying translated to modern English “Rapture” Greek’s “Plucked off Earth” does not really show at all that “Rapture” is not in the Bible, but proves that it indeed is in the Bible.

""And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
-Revelation 5:9-10, around A.D. 95

The twenty four elders and the multitudes they represented ("prayers of the saints") were redeemed to God out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation.
If they were only Old Testament Jews, they could not have been from every kindred, tongue (language), people and nation. Because they were people from around the world, certainly these are Gentiles and not only Jews.
Therefore this verse clearly refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture which caught these Gentile people up to heaven BEFORE the start of the Tribulation.

Gays4jesus: I am confused here for sure?? In the above I really have a problem finding anything that says anything other than we will get zapped and end up in Heaven. Missing is the “dead shall rise 1st” check out the Bible there are only two major risings of the dead. They are talked about only in Rev. 20. One is the dead in Christ the other is the non-believing dead. It is a no brainer about the non-believing dead they do not rise until 1000 years of Jesus’ reign as literal king in person on Earth in the New Jerusalem (this city is about the size of Pluto). There would have to be a 3rd major rising of the dead to get a pre-trib. Rev. 11:18 is the exact date of the Rapture. Though you cannot name that date as a day on a calendar to set a date, it is stating the Rapture takes place right at the sixth trumpet. About 3.5 billion people would have been killed by that date so it would be somewhat reasonable to assume that we would know the season of the Rapture because so many would be being killed all around us adding up to 3.5 billion dead. There is no magic sudden Rapture. It will be possible to calculate to within 75 days because the Bible tells us 1260 days are to spank the CHURCH (sort of a Passover time for Christians) a Washing in the Literal Blood of Christ for false doctrines, cultural issues, conditionings, and more. Chrisstians do not get a free ride to the pearly gates with all the baggage of hate doctrines. We love out hate so it will take 1260 days to clean us of this before we go to eternity with Christ Jesus.
Most folks who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture teach that believers from the Church Age are caught up to meet the Lord in the air in Revelation 4:1, "Come up hither", prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.

Ancient Rapture References

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which over-whelms the world because of our sins." –Attributed to Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 306-373

This comes from passages the Christians won’t have to endure God’s great wrath.

Saints Havested:

Rev 14:12-16 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (KJV)

7 bowls:

Rev 14:17-15:1

17 And another angel came out of the temple, which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. CHAPTER 15 1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (KJV)

Christians are removed before the GREAT WRATH (7 last bowls) where an additional 3.5 billion will be killed leaving the Earth with around 1 billion left alive for the 1000 year reign of Jesus on Earth.

Please note: It is not my intention to do anything other than to help you think beyond our conditionings. Like science often has to revise their theories as often their formulas create more unanswered questions than they answered. As time goes on and we get closer to Jesus’ return knowledge shall increase (not all bad) just a fact. We as it were nobodies have now access to all knowledge man knows via the internet and is just a key word or two away. Keywords are tricky, deception is in abundance, but so is truth. Don’t hold on to past belief when you are given fact. Truth does not deter you from God, but gets you closer to him and prepares you to standfast, holdfast, and persevere to the end. What will you do if the TRIB comes and you are still here? Were you left behind like the false teachers of the Left Behind series? Or is God’s plan more detailed and perfect than you previously thought?



1 comment:

Anonymous said...

You might like to Google "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "X-Raying Margaret," "Deceiving and Being Deceived," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Humbug Huebner," "Wily Jeffrey," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers," and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty." These are all by historian Dave MacPherson who has a new one on Google titled "Edward Irving is Unnerving." And so the rapture debate continues! Arthur