Urges of unknown writer

gays4jesus: This unknown person wrote me about his urges it to compare to gays.

well if that is the case I guess homosexuals are aliens.
I know my own sins are brought on by being tempted.  When I happen to park the TV on BET on a nasty rap video instead of crusing on through and start getting nasty thoughts, thats when desire is fueled....
When I see a half-naked woman on the cover of Cosmo magazine while waiting in line at the grocery thats when my desire is fueled....

gays4jesus: Talk about the tragedy that the Catholic church mainly and much of Christianity, especially from the 11^th century on we live in guilt because if it is sexual we are sinning. What this guy is explaining is what humans do and God created in us because the name of the game is meet someone called a “helpmeet”

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (KJV)

5828 `ezer (ay'-zer); from 5826; aid: KJV-- help. 5048 neged (neh'-ghed); from 5046; a front, i.e. part opposite; specifically a counterpart, or mate; usually (adverbial, especially with preposition) over against or before: KJV-- about, (over) against, X aloof, X far (off), X from, over, presence, X other side, sight, X to view.

The form that makes this happen is slangly called “horny”. We can give it more decent names like “I want to get married”, “I want to meet someone”, “I want to go on a date”< “I want romance”, and other phrases that would mean getting together and eventually marrying someone. To assign sin to what is a built in (by God) nature of humans is like stop breathing. The sin we like to refer to is:

Matt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (KJV)

This is a pretty abused scripture. Marriage in those days this would be breaching a marriage contract for profit between two families (husbands) that were relatives of each other. Lusting would tarnish the contract, as would be like raping. In those days thinking about it would be like raping the other man’s wife which defiles her more than the raper.

Looking on a potential sexual partner has a very specific biochemical action in the brain. Studies in detail on this can be seen in documentaries and read online. Science knows eye sees chemical reaction in the brain occurs, glands operate as designed. Stinky parts smells good now and much more. When you try to control this you create other chemical reactions that is out of sink which can result in harm. I am not intending to detail what happens in your body when you look on a person that makes you horny. Just want to say the Bible is not talking about your built in operations to find a mate. Our control should be, nice but that person is not available and neither am I but wow hot they are so what. Magazines are as evil as you make them to be in your mind. Magazines are a business fact, you can let them rule your life and associate it to the lies about sex from so much conditioning from mainly the Vatican and other higher influential church leaders over centuries or you can think “she’s cute” and finish paying for the food you bought.

To use your hornyness to imply it is a comparison to gays simply wanting to meet a lover is like you applying lust and vile passion to marriage sex.
But its pretty hard to think nasty thoughts when you are in full communion with Christ in prayer...

gays4jesus: thinking about the wonderful physical aspect of love with the one you love is not “nasty” and communion with your spouse with Jesus at an alter together is a wonderfull way to remember Jesus till he returns.

In fact The MCC church was once offered to give communion at a church convention (yes a gay church is part of clergy gatherings of str8 churches) They in fact called people to come up for communion with their spouses (gay or str8) and this astounded the str8 clergy that is was so wonderful an idea to be with your loved one having communion give you together. Your “nasty” is from conditioning not Bible.
Talulah (apparently a female he was writing to), whenever we talk about these types of subjects your comments always go back to a slant that gives me a feeling that its impossible to resist urges....

gays4jesus: it was designed to be resisted, when you get the urge you want water or food you just eat or drink. Well sex is not water or food as such and has perimeters and boundaries and rules of engagements that evolve with time. We can weigh those urges as to how to go about as it were satisfying that hunger. Societies offers guidelines that are acceptable. Usually hang out where you can meet someone in a casual way, church, dance, party, interests groups, etc. Then be friendly in a decent manner hoping to be asked for a date or asking for a date. I am being very simple here because so many lies about as you say it “urges” are causing people much anguish. The line is to be drawn when you begin to go outside the boundaries of your customs. There really is no need to talk about extremes like gang rape or rape or other completely radical departures from the customary processes of dating. In Jesus day there were strict customs, other cultures have different customs, but generally love finds ways and God is not standing next to you with a club. He in fact is there because he loves you and wants you to have joy and happiness.
#1 if you just desire a relationship with someone you are not a homosexual.  I love my father and I have a relationship with him.... but that doesn't mean I have the desire to have sex with him.  A relationship without homosexual sex or sexual desire, is not a homosexual relationship.  If you like hanging out with people of the same sex, that doesn't even mean you are a homosexual.

gays4jesus: this guy is really trying to deal with issues for sure.
#2 Desiring sex with women is sin if you are a woman,

gays4jesus: this statement requires Bible details and explanations of verses used to come up with lesbian is sin. The Bible does not condemn lesbianism at all. (Note: again based on we are not talking about gang rape, rape and other abusive acts, these are issues that have no sexual orientations)

or sin if you are a man, and that woman is not your wife. 

gays4jesus: you base “desiring” to your “urges” and so again you are in the wrong. You personally may have a problem with urges, but otherwise it is a misnomer to related desires to sin. As you state desiring a married woman may actually be no more than a what if game and hey sure she is cute so what, and so what if it get junior excited a little. Again, the lusting after another man’s wife is a much more serious thing.

2 Sam 11:2 And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon. (KJV)

This sort of thing led to murdering her husband. You can piece together the sort of things that are the lusting God is talking about. God is not talking about your daily whims of sexual interests that would never ever lead to anything other than a passing thought. You are a sexual creature and it is a biochemical thing that is provable and has been proven. It is for the insurance that you will find a mate and love and because it is functioning as designed doesn’t mean you can call it sin.

It can be no plainer than that.  1 Corinthians 6:9 is quite clear that homosexuality is sin.... the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is quite clear on that...

gays4jesus: Here again is the typical homophobic response and not a hint on how you get gang rape to mean gay is sin or how you get a word that means “male temple prostitute” to mean homosexual. Since Pual wrote this word :

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (KJV)

733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.

There has been 76 documented by Christian writers that use that word for the next 1600 years. Each time that word was use there were two possible explanations given. One nothing was given to indicate a meaning in the entire document as to what sort a person was the “arsenokoites”, the other explanation was “sex out of species”. 1600 years and there is no not even any other documentation on “arsenokoites” yet so many Christian base gay is sin on arsenokoites. In Paul’s day there were 9 Greek words to define gays, Paul chose a word that means the same as the Hebrew counterpart:

6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.

In 1850 at a USA clergy convention they discussed this verse 1 Cor 6:9 and all agreed as taught no one would be in heaven (they taught it to mean masturbators would not inherit) so they desided to find another group to be the “arsenokoites” and since gays were already condemned with 12 other verses (in which 5 used the word sodomite) they thought no one would care so they started from then on to teach gays won’t inherit. Then in 1946 the first modern version Bible hit the shelve and the two Greek words were removed and homosexual inserted. (note: all modern versions comes from Westcott and Hort’s translation).

and the opening of Romans is quite clear on that.

gays4jesus: Romans 1:18-32 is about str8 adults turning from GOD to gods. God gave them over to go to fertility temples and join in with the ritual sexual orgies conducted to those gods. You have to be str8 first if it were to be condemning gays and you would have to have known God first and then turn from him and this in not what gays do and gays were always gay. And gay behaviors do not match verse 28-32 either they are quite opposite those listed sins. Paul actually went into a fertility temple that had over 1000 temple prostitutes and in that temple was also that status to the unknown god.

I did a TV program from the ruins of the temple of the “mother of the gods” (Cybele) which the religions of Paul’s centered around and was prevalent since the 2^nd century BC.
Instead of defending the person who just can't escape urges lets just get to the point.

gays4jesus: got to ask the question if there is no way out of something could it be we got it wrong. If the facts shows 69% of quite provable Christians have sex on the first date, could it be we are not listening to God but instead listening to are teachers without doing any homework to see if your amen should be kept or removed for your teacher.
Nothing causes us to act on temptation.  We have a choice (we are not robots or animals).  A temptation does not become a sin until we encourage it in our mind, or we act upon it.

gays4jesus: Now you compare your “urges” to “temptations”:

temptation 3986 peirasmos (pi-ras-mos'); from 3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity: KJV-- temptation, X try.

Urge 1758 enecho (en-ekh'-o); from 1722 and 2192; to hold in or upon, i.e. ensnare; by implication, to keep a grudge: KJV-- entangle with, have a quarrel against, urge.

Temptation is more on the line of being set up to do something and urges comes from within you to do something. Each of them you can manage, but for different reasons. Both have their good and evil side. If you are talking strictly of the evil side of each you should address it not assume if it is an urge it is evil or if it is a temptation it is evil. What you are trying to talk about is gay is sin and so if a gay person feel gay and does something meaning date it is sin. You are hymning and hawing around the bush at your own problems with your own sexuality and so you extend that to as the problem gays have so you think getting control like you do your battle when you see women’s pictures you think gays can work through wanting to be with a same sex partner.
So we are back to my first statement.  Unless homosexuals are some kind of aliens,

gays4jesus: well they might be some sort of aliens to the likes of you because you don’t seem to have the ability to know the sameness they are to str8s and you are applying healthy str8 dating and romancing type behaviors that gays do because in sex gays and str8s are very similar and it the horrid str8 sex act that you relate gays to. You want all gays to be in the field of the evil side of str8 sex when they are just as behaving in healthy sexual (dating/marrying) practices that as it were healthy str8s do. It is your sick perverted thoughts that turn ordinary gay behaviors into being the same as the abusive str8 sex that is all too common.

the methods heterosexuals use to escape sinful thoughts and sinful actions can work in the mind of a homosexual....

gays4jesus: this statement means str8 should stop sex and can and if they do then gays should stop too. What you refer to is behavior modification techniques, which the ex-gay ministries are doing. Ex-gay ministries had their beginnings in the early 70s and up to today do not work, all of the techniques used to change gays or even just to get them to abstain does not work. I have interviewed even the more stubborn ex-gay claiming he was changed only within a few questions showing there has been no change just denial. If you want to stop smoking some ways has good results, but we know smoking is harmful because of the facts that came from decades of research. Where is your research about gays? There are lots of studies and research and more concerning gays and it is always that gay is healthy and not sin. Gays rights movement (is secular and should not be associates with Christian gays) following history’s rights movements in the stages rights movements takes, a great deal education folk and court action to force racists and bigots into treating people with dignity and respect. Things are getting more evil because gay rights are happening, gay rights is a long term effort and any persecuted group stand up and works hard over a very long time to get human rights. Because gays no longer allow blatant condemnation does not make it out of bounds as they follow the same approach that any segment of society follows. Today blacks are not fully equal in a lot of people’s eyes, but hey compared to not that long ago it is amazing. Gays also are progressing to that point. Comparing gays to sex with animals as some Christian groups do, case in point the infamous flap in Seattle as a anti-gay Christian group from Portland came to get a bill passed to take rights away from gays. They wanted gays to be classed as sex with animals including adding on many minority races into that bill not just gays and this flap that had that info was turned over so could not be read as signatures were gathered..

sinful action? 14 to 18 verses (there a couple verses that have applied to lesbians to get up to 18) to say gays thoughts move to sinful actions means you need to explain how you get this idea, it comes from 700 years of conditioning when a new doctrine was invented to specifically purge from power leaders that did not have the same ideals and the influential Catholics. So where is your info about how you got any verse to say gay is sin?
Make sense? (and don't get me wrong I know everyone isn't the same, but there is a way out of sinful thoughts and sinful actions, or else the bible is a fraud when it says \"God won't give us a temptation we cannot handle\")

gays4jesus: Then if God won’t give us temptation that we can’t handle why is there 700 million gays or soon to be according to statics and population)? Why do ex-gay ministries don’t work? Why does God bless gays? Why is gay civil rights now coming state to state for full marriage rights? A ton of questions. And the Bible is not a fraud so what does that mean? Someone is wrong! WHO? This is the question you should be asking yourself. Why do homophobes have to lie, they brought all sorts of false accusations on Jesus.

Matt 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; Matt 26:60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, (KJV)

It took some doing to get enough false witnesses to bring Jesus to Pilot, and also we have lies lies and more lies about about gays comes out of the mouths that are saying God hates gays or gay is sin, or gays needs to be at least abstinent. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and the result is as in accepting Jesus we recognize we are sinners and here Jesus died and paid the price which would for us be eternal death in outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Instead, we feel joy seeing there is a way out through Jesus Christ by his paying that price on the Cross. Conviction includes a way out, guilt has no way out. Homophobes lay guilt trips on gays and many gays struggle for a very long time because they think God hates them since they are not changing. Gays do not go to ex-gay ministries for fun, they go because they believe God hates them unless they change and be str8 or get help to abstain. This really does lot of harm to many gays because they find they aren’t and can’t change and so God must really hate them or there is no hope for them and the leave Jesus behind. Many gays come to realize gay is not sin and that truth sets them free and they go on in life loving Jesus keeping the faith.

Why does it need to be all so often a crisis in a homophobes life to get them to see gay is not sin? Homophobes often needs something like finding out one of their kids is gay. Almost all homophobe needs a life changing experience, a tragedy, or other major event that disrupts their before they will take the time to really see if gay is sin or not. Pastors are telling parents their kid is going to hell because their kid is gay. What a shame that this is how a lot of parent accepts their gay kids. It does not have to be this way; true deliverance can be seen in groups like PFLAG where you have long-term facts about homophobes that was delivered of that false belief.

Gay Pentecostal Faith Healing Ministries YouTube comment made by Traynorcustomreverb

Gay Pentecostal Faith Healing Ministries

Get ready for a number of Gay Pentecostal Faith healing Ministries to become noticed one the NEWS

This is my video on YouTube in which Traynorcustomreverb made his comment below:

Traynorcustomreverb Jul 15, 2009 Note & ACCOUNT IS CLOSED in YouTube now

Comment on your video: Gay Pentecostal Faith Healing Ministries

1st Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
Please don't be fooled folks This guy is trying to sell you, snake oil.

gays4jesus:

1 Tim 4:1-3 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (KJV)

Traynorcustomreverb verse selection is a famous one especially for Protestants. Often it is used to condemn Catholics for denying their priest the right to marry. By adding verses 2 & 3 we see the theme and can compare. This verse is not something you can wish all sort of things to, you sort of need to stick to the theme not add in the horror sci-fi channel of our modern day. LIES? Let see who is lying.. just try to find a homophobe that will take time to explain any verse they use. Traynorcustomreverb as an example plopped verse in and left it stand implying condemnation without showing what I say is a lie or not. As for me I have several online outreaches that I do go into detail about each thing I say. I take time to get into the Hebrew words and the Greek words in the Bible and dig into history. Any time at all I am extremely happy for even just one homophobe to take a little bit more time to bring out what they say I am lying about. What seducing sprits? Is Traynorcustomreverb an expert in demons or occults so he can credibly talk on seducing spirit and then use God given authorization to cast out these spirits? Nope, like so far all homophobes that comes to me they hit and run leaving no hope to see anything that backs up what they bombed me with.

I am a Christian in the Assemblies of God since 1974; I read the Bible often and prayer without ceasing. 1000s tell me they see God in me and I am talking about church folk and pastors. It is not my point to give my testimony here now only to show that homophobes never care to investigate their claim. What I say I am more than willing to back up and I don’t hide in a closet but will sincerely give account of my faith in Jesus Christ. We can go through the Bible and in your church call on God to manifest a move of the Holy Spirit in your presence on this issue. God will move I guarantee you and he will show you he is with me.

What I would like to see from those homophobes that feel they need to pounce on me is show me what you know. You claim you are a Christian and you are telling me I am not or I am as Traynorcustomreverb says I am selling you snake oil. I know for a fact anytime I can be with any of you it would not take too long before you see Jesus in me. Problem is the only unfortunate way it seems is some sort of crisis needs to occur in your life to get you to receive a revelation that you are wrong. And also unfortunately God does indeed tell us in his word that so many won’t listen in the endtimes and God has to send many ordeals (3.5 billion will be killed during the time God will move) it is better to begin now so that time won’t come and you find yourself in desperation but instead can understand those times must come before Jesus returns and so you can be strong in faith to help other that are in the place you will be in if you refuse to hear now.

Before the temple of Jesus’ day was torn down (70AD) messengers were sent and they refused to listen to these messengers and life as they knew it came to an end and it took to 1948 for them to get Israel back. Today’s Christians are not listening; I am not referring just to their doctrine concerning gays, but many issues they will refuse to hear because they want Jesus in their pockets now in their hearts. And like the believers in 70 AD so will the believers in the last days be.

Jude 1:7 "fornication" 14 Verses in a seven part mini Series

(7) Jude 1:7 "fornication" 14 Verses in a seven part mini Series

7:57

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clintjordan (2 hours ago) Show Hide

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You are wrong. The men in Sodom and Gomorrah never took the daughters, but rather, refused them. The cities were not destroyed because of an attempt to rape the angels, simply because before the angels were sent, God had already planned to destroy it, and it is because of this one factor that this teaching is disproved. Stop trying to justify yourself.

gays4jesus: The video clintjordan replied to is about:

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (KJV)

Ezek 16:49-50 49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. (KJV)

Jasher, Chapter 19:34 And they took Paltith and brought her before their judges, and they said to them, Thus did she do, and it is she who supplied the poor man with bread, therefore did he not die all this time; now therefore declare to us the punishment due to this woman for having transgressed our law.

The entire book of Jasher is below. It was considered to be in the Bible but Genesis won out. But being in the running it is a very interesting 2^nd rendering of the accounts in Genesis almost chapter by chapter.

Yes, it is a non-issue about why the cities were destroyed. Try to think about it I am talking to homophobes and it is homophobes that say the cities were destroyed because of gays. Why are you correcting me? I got tons of my sites and info to get into detail about what I know about the verse. But a related verse does show men taking another man’s concubine instead of his man guest.

Judg 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. (KJV)

Also think about it, 650 million gays and you question it when a gay person talks about a verse that so many homophobic Christians have bombarded gays regularly on this very verse. It is why I preach weekly on TV and have sites on the web. To show the verses are not talking about gays. Gen. 19 details a story that if the goals of the people coming to Lot’s house happened the angels if they were human would have been raped to death. That is just the fact of the verse, not the reason God destroyed the cities.

The strangest comment is this really dumb statement “stop trying to justify yourself” Keep in mind it is almost impossible to hear through a str8 service that will reflect on sin at some point to give the example gay is sin by referring as though it is a auto sin and no need to explain it thing. All the heinous acts of str8s in the world since Jesus and all a pastor can come up with is to condemn gays? Homophobes justify their hatred of gays by not explaining anything to them about how these homophobes got gays into any verse. If gay really was a sin then why is it so hard to use a verse that really talks about real gays. 100% not gay acts is the act of two whole cities of men and women coming to a person’s house to rape their guest to death. Gen 19:4 says “all the people” and so what does that suppose to mean?

Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: (KJV)

5971 `am (am); from 6004; a people (as a congregated unit); specifically, a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collectively) troops or attendants; figuratively, a flock: KJV-- folk, men, nation, people.

In verse 5 we have the infamous “to know” and here is the Hebrew for it:

3045 yada` (yaw-dah'); a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) [as follow]: KJV-- acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, makeself) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.

The people of the 2 cities already knew the angels were up to know good, after all it took the angel less than a day to get to Sodom and word spreads very fast in those days and they knew the angels had talked to Abraham and they wanted to know why they were in their city.

clintjordan (2 hours ago) Show Hide

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Fornication is out of wedlock sex, whether it be male and female, male and male. What Jude 1:7 says is, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Strange flesh is unnatural sex, as male on male sex is also unnatural, as described in Romans 1:18-27.

WEDLOCK as in whose definition? The Garden definition was no real marriages at all; just a brother would have sex with a sister. The Bible does not explain much detail. FACT no humans just Adam and Eve, Fact babies would have to have sex together to make more humans. Marriage evolution is how the Bible defines marriages. 1^st ones were siblings and there were no pastors or courts to give a license or intermediaters. It is not clear at all in the 1^st 1000 years about how marriage were performed or how couples got hooked together. Lots of ancient books to give someone’s thoughts on it and some of those books were like Bible for centuries. Then Noah’s thing. The Flood and 1^st cousins got married though how this happened is not describe we just guess. But at least we are sure it was at least cousins now and not siblings that married each other, though still what was a marriage, no defining detail is in the Bible. Nothing much except they multiplied for another 1000years. Like the 1^st 1000 years the people of God sinned, there was no atheists or much in the way of other god’s. At the tower of Babel, it is said in the Bible they want to build a building that would reach Heaven where GOD is. This was a no no obviously with God. Still no real defining of what a marriage was other than statements of bloodlines who had who. Zappola no one spoke the same language any more (studies guesses and wishes say groups had the same languages and the gathered according to the groups and went off to all parts of the world with the help of a Bible word for one continent ripping and tearing apart and drifting away to their current positions today. Again emphasis on study research guesses and wishes and ancient books and more to come up with the up steps. This makes for humans all over the world. It also allows for separate customs that had began since 1^st cousins sex created enough babies eventually that 2^nd cousin and 3^rd cousins began to be preferred. (beside the curse that pretty much forced males to think they are superior to women and that hard work is a sign of manhood). What I am saying we simply have no definitive “this is a Bible marriage yet” Abraham’s turn at bat, God said I give you this land and somehow he had a wife and so finally had a baby but not after sex with slave girls past time because no babies from the wife, then hey baby from the wife and now we have Jacob who God changed his name to Israel. What a hasle for him to marry the one he wanted, he had to be a slave to an uncle and then was tricked to marry the other daughter and had to slave a lot longer, finally married Rachel his dream. Then a contest who could pop out the most babies and not easy so add the slave women to make more babies. Well we get 12 distinct kids that so now we have tribes. Now start the custom of marrying in your own tribe. Hmm how did that happen if that brings you back to Garden sex with siblings? Ahh the answer go out and fight wars and or go to other nations steal the women or something to marry them. Now you have it right RIGHT? First though hate the daddy’s favorite say the lions ate him. Get a famine, that brother said come to Egypt. Hmm Favorite son seems to have married in to other gods family? Let my people go, then the Hebrew 12 tribes gets a nation of their own. Now concrete marry in your own tribe with exceptions to go get women from other nations and also still have slave that you can have sex with. We really are not getting the Bible to tell us details about what is a “under God “marriage really is, are we? Moses got the LAW, but Moses got divorcement legalized by God too. Because God said this was not so from the beginning (confusing because so many sexual partners were part of a lot of famous Bible characters life)but for Moses’ sake God allowed divorcement which is different from “putting away your wife” Pretty much this sort of marrying lasted until Jesus came . In Jesus day it was still families decided marriage at birth or a very young age who would marry who and what payments or other profits could be gained. Still concubines and slaves were legal and multiple sexual partners remained common even up to the 11^th century. Bible marriage never ever shows a man chooses a wife because he wanted to date and get married. The Bible does have love stories. Solomon’s love story remember, he had 700 wives and 600 concubines or something like that. So, what was his love song really about? I am not making a mockery about marriage, but only trying to get you to think so you won’t place a false belief into written Bible words. It was the 12^th century that moved us into modern marriages. Paganism had a well developed marriage rituals and systems in place that matches what we commonly call “God’s Bible marriages”. The rituals we use in wedding and reception were to fertility gods. So many pagans came to Christianity in the 12^th century they also brought their marriage styles with them and soon it became considered Christian in origin. What is fornication? What is marriage? 100% legal to have sex to make babies with a slave in Jesus’ day and throughout the Bible. Multi-sexual partners was pretty common. Falling in love through dating was not common. Love of course happens so the issue is not a no love marriage, although for 1000 years after Jesus sex was to make babies with the wife, for pleasure and love a concubine or mistress was legal. The Bible details concubines and slave for baby making with no condemnation. Only condemnation is having sex with someone’s else’s property which was also what a wife was in those Bible days.

I am saying all this because simple statements like: “Fornication is out of wedlock sex” is like you don’t even know anything about the Bible concerning the time through Acts 29. Everyone in the Bible almost had sex out of marriage and was not called in fornication and was not condemned by God or anyone. It is more like having sex out of legally authorize sexual partners. Sounds a lot like I am making marriage not all that so good a thing or putting it down and that would be about as wrong as you could think about what I am saying. I am saying your words are not representing the facts. God is truth and so it is via truth you speak when speaking about God and his word. If you want to comment to me or in my sites I expect to hear some apparent appearance that you know something about what you are saying. So easy to say the Bible says. I just walked through though somewhat harshly the evolution of marriage in the Bible. God does not indicate anything about the changes in marriages and he does not seem to tell anyone how to marry. Maybe in oral codes, other ancient writings some more detail comes out, but we are talking Bible if you add in other books it opens the door that you also need to hear out other sources just as creditable.

When someone uses the word fornication when talking with or about gays it implies 100% you are saying gay has to be sin because they cannot get married. So they automatically when having sex to be out of wedlock. You simply do not accept what God joins together let not man put asunder. Another reason I put Jasher 19 below, which even as I am writing this Perry of Manna-fest on DayStar also used Jasher in his preaching (not chapter19) is to show you what was going on in Sodom. Sodom was a wicked city not because it had an active gay community. You know lots of gay clubs, Skating clubs, hiking clubs, gay Christian churches, dance bars, gay restaurants, etc. but it constructed bed on street corners then kidnapped people to sexually torture to death. Also show at least a book that was considered seriously had details about Lot’s daughters, a couple stayed in Sodom one was married.

Point of my video is to deal with homophobes that just cannot seem to know the difference in what is marriage and assume gay couples lives in fornication and the city was destroyed because of gays. These are lies and as long as there are those that feel the need to condemn gays there is also the need for the message gay is not sin to go forth.

Roman’s 1:26-27’s nature and natural is “seed and instinct” meaning if you imply gay is not natural it is saying that they were not gay to begin with that they were str8, We are talking Paul’s day Greek and the use of nature and natural which does not mean the same way we could think it today. For a person to be gay in 26-27 they got that way by verse 24-25 and so were str8 and adult because they knew God and turned to gods. But also in 28-32 these got more from God they got reprobate minds to do every sort of evil. Well gays were not str8 to begin with and they do not turn from God. This is the facts and it is not a guess or a wish. Real life gays were gay already. Christian families’ kids usually are Christians and it takes quite a thing to get to turn to other gods or become atheists and 6.5 billion people show str8s goes through a lot and turns from God and is not something you can use on gays should a gay turn from God. Paul is addressing Hebrews that turned from God and turned to the many fertility gods in Rome and in Corinth. What changes took place in 24-25 was that these Hebrews actually went to fertility temples and joined in the sexual orgies style worship in those temples. Gays are in fact opposite of verse 28-32. Hard to comprehend how a homophobes can use Romans when there is so much information about good works and good deeds gays do not even remotely appearing in any shape of the imagination to be reprobate doing all sorts of evil. You have to be in complete reacting to your hatred and see only pictures in your mind of some sort of imaginary conditions that completely blinds you to real life gay behaviors.

Your strange flesh if we go by Jude, which refers to Sodom, which refers to angels.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (KJV)

We know sex was done by some kind of being called the sons of God. (these today are part of the ELITE that are very much controlling the world and will be very much part of antichrist’s kingdom). Satan sown tares that grow up with the wheat. It is credible info that in those days it was known that it could be a way to gain power to have sex with angels, maybe be wild statements and radical, but still it is credible when you really get out and check out what is available info to those that take time to seek the truth. We hardly know the tip of the iceberg of what things are out there and what we will see before the return of Jesus. This coming grand finally will bring great shocks to our way of thinking and be why many will say to that mountain fall on me. But here you are wanting to send 650 million gays to hell because you watch a little bit of my video on Jude verse 7.

Sacred-texts Apocrypha Index Previous Next

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Book of Jasher, Chapter 19

1 And the cities of Sodom had four judges to four cities, and these were their names, Serak in the city of Sodom, Sharkad in Gomorrah, Zabnac in Admah, and Menon in Zeboyim.

2 And Eliezer Abraham's servant applied to them different names, and he converted Serak to Shakra, Sharkad to Shakrura, Zebnac to Kezobim, and Menon to Matzlodin.

3 And by desire of their four judges the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had beds erected in the streets of the cities, and if a man came to these places they laid hold of him and brought him to one of their beds, and by force made him to lie in them.

4 And as he lay down, three men would stand at his head and three at his feet, and measure him by the length of the bed, and if the man was less than the bed these six men would stretch him at each end, and when he cried out to them they would not answer him.

5 And if he was longer than the bed they would draw together the two sides of the bed at each end, until the man had reached the gates of death.

6 And if he continued to cry out to them, they would answer him, saying, Thus shall it be done to a man that cometh into our land.

7 And when men heard all these things that the people of the cities of Sodom did, they refrained from coming there.

8 And when a poor man came to their land they would give him silver and gold, and cause a proclamation in the whole city not to give him a morsel of bread to eat, and if the stranger should remain there some days, and die from hunger, not having been able to obtain a morsel of bread, then at his death all the people of the city would come and take their silver and gold which they had given to him.

9 And those that could recognize the silver or gold which they had given him took it back, and at his death they also stripped him of his garments, and they would fight about them, and he that prevailed over his neighbor took them.

10 They would after that carry him and bury him under some of the shrubs in the deserts; so they did all the days to any one that came to them and died in their land.

11 And in the course of time Sarah sent Eliezer to Sodom, to see Lot and inquire after his welfare.

12 And Eliezer went to Sodom, and he met a man of Sodom fighting with a stranger, and the man of Sodom stripped the poor man of all his clothes and went away.

13 And this poor man cried to Eliezer and supplicated his favor on account of what the man of Sodom had done to him.

14 And he said to him, Why dost thou act thus to the poor man who came to thy land?

15 And the man of Sodom answered Eliezer, saying, Is this man thy brother, or have the people of Sodom made thee a judge this day, that thou speakest about this man?

16 And Eliezer strove with the man of Sodom on account of the poor man, and when Eliezer approached to recover the poor man's clothes from the man of Sodom, he hastened and with a stone smote Eliezer in the forehead.

17 And the blood flowed copiously from Eliezer's forehead, and when the man saw the blood he caught hold of Eliezer, saying, Give me my hire for having rid thee of this bad blood that was in thy forehead, for such is the custom and the law in our land.

18 And Eliezer said to him, Thou hast wounded me and requirest me to pay thee thy hire; and Eliezer would not hearken to the words of the man of Sodom.

19 And the man laid hold of Eliezer and brought him to Shakra the judge of Sodom for judgment.

20 And the man spoke to the judge, saying, I beseech thee my lord, thus has this man done, for I smote him with a stone that the blood flowed from his forehead, and he is unwilling to give me my hire.

21 And the judge said to Eliezer, This man speaketh truth to thee, give him his hire, for this is the custom in our land; and Eliezer heard the words of the judge, and he lifted up a stone and smote the judge, and the stone struck on his forehead, and the blood flowed copiously from the forehead of the judge, and Eliezer said, If this then is the custom in your land give thou unto this man what I should have given him, for this has been thy decision, thou didst decree it.

22 And Eliezer left the man of Sodom with the judge, and he went away.

23 And when the kings of Elam had made war with the kings of Sodom, the kings of Elam captured all the property of Sodom, and they took Lot captive, with his property, and when it was told to Abraham he went and made war with the kings of Elam, and he recovered from their hands all the property of Lot as well as the property of Sodom.

24 At that time the wife of Lot bare him a daughter, and he called her name Paltith, saying, Because God had delivered him and his whole household from the kings of Elam; and Paltith daughter of Lot grew up, and one of the men of Sodom took her for a wife.

25 And a poor man came into the city to seek a maintenance, and he remained in the city some days, and all the people of Sodom caused a proclamation of their custom not to give this man a morsel of bread to eat, until he dropped dead upon the earth, and they did so.

26 And Paltith the daughter of Lot saw this man lying in the streets starved with hunger, and no one would give him any thing to keep him alive, and he was just upon the point of death.

27 And her soul was filled with pity on account of the man, and she fed him secretly with bread for many days, and the soul of this man was revived.

28 For when she went forth to fetch water she would put the bread in the water pitcher, and when she came to the place where the poor man was, she took the bread from the pitcher and gave it him to eat; so she did many days.

29 And all the people of Sodom and Gomorrah wondered how this man could bear starvation for so many days.

30 And they said to each other, This can only be that he eats and drinks, for no man can bear starvation for so many days or live as this man has, without even his countenance changing; and three men concealed themselves in a place where the poor man was stationed, to know who it was that brought him bread to eat.

31 And Paltith daughter of Lot went forth that day to fetch water, and she put bread into her pitcher of water, and she went to draw water by the poor man's place, and she took out the bread from the pitcher and gave it to the poor man and he ate it.

32 And the three men saw what Paltith did to the poor man, and they said to her, It is thou then who hast supported him, and therefore has he not starved, nor changed in appearance nor died like the rest.

33 And the three men went out of the place in which they were concealed, and they seized Paltith and the bread which was in the poor man's hand.

34 And they took Paltith and brought her before their judges, and they said to them, Thus did she do, and it is she who supplied the poor man with bread, therefore did he not die all this time; now therefore declare to us the punishment due to this woman for having transgressed our law.

35 And the people of Sodom and Gomorrah assembled and kindled a fire in the street of the city, and they took the woman and cast her into the fire and she was burned to ashes.

36 And in the city of Admah there was a woman to whom they did the like.

37 For a traveler came into the city of Admah to abide there all night, with the intention of going home in the morning, and he sat opposite the door of the house of the young woman's father, to remain there, as the sun had set when be had reached that place; and the young woman saw him sitting by the door of the house.

38 And he asked her for a drink of water and she said to him, Who art thou? and he said to her, I was this day going on the road, and reached here when the sun set, so I will abide here all night, and in the morning I will arise early and continue my journey.

39 And the young woman went into the house and fetched the man bread and water to eat and drink.

40 And this affair became known to the people of Admah, and they assembled and brought the young woman before the judges, that they should judge her for this act.

41 And the judge said, The judgment of death must pass upon this woman because she transgressed our law, and this therefore is the decision concerning her.

42 And the people of those cities assembled and brought out the young woman, and anointed her with honey from head to foot, as the judge had decreed, and they placed her before a swarm of bees which were then in their hives, and the bees flew upon her and stung her that her whole body was swelled.

43 And the young woman cried out on account of the bees, but no one took notice of her or pitied her, and her cries ascended to heaven.

44 And the Lord was provoked at this and at all the works of the cities of Sodom, for they had abundance of food, and had tranquility amongst them, and still would not sustain the poor and the needy, and in those days their evil doings and sins became great before the Lord.

45 And the Lord sent for two of the angels that had come to Abraham's house, to destroy Sodom and its cities.

46 And the angels rose up from the door of Abraham's tent, after they had eaten and drunk, and they reached Sodom in the evening, and Lot was then sitting in the gate of Sodom, and when he saw them he rose to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground.

47 And he pressed them greatly and brought them into his house, and he gave them victuals which they ate, and they abode all night in his house.

48 And the angels said to Lot, Arise, go forth from this place, thou and all belonging to thee, lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of this city, for the Lord will destroy this place.

49 And the angels laid hold upon the hand of Lot and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hands of his children, and all belonging to him, and they brought him forth and set him without the cities.

50 And they said to Lot, Escape for thy life, and he fled and all belonging to him.

51 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah and upon all these cities brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.

52 And he overthrew these cities, all the plain and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground; and Ado the wife of Lot looked back to see the destruction of the cities, for her compassion was moved on account of her daughters who remained in Sodom, for they did not go with her.

53 And when she looked back she became a pillar of salt, and it is yet in that place unto this day.

54 And the oxen which stood in that place daily licked up the salt to the extremities of their feet, and in the morning it would spring forth afresh, and they again licked it up unto this day.

55 And Lot and two of his daughters that remained with him fled and escaped to the cave of Adullam, and they remained there for some time.

56 And Abraham rose up early in the morning to see what had been done to the cities of Sodom; and he looked and beheld the smoke of the cities going up like the smoke of a furnace.

57 And Lot and his two daughters remained in the cave, and they made their father drink wine, and they lay with him, for they said there was no man upon earth that could raise up seed from them, for they thought that the whole earth was destroyed.

58 And they both lay with their father, and they conceived and bare sons, and the first born called the name of her son Moab, saying, From my father did I conceive him; he is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

59 And the younger also called her son Benami; he is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

60 And after this Lot and his two daughters went away from there, and he dwelt on the other side of the Jordan with his two daughters and their sons, and the sons of Lot grew up, and they went and took themselves wives from the land of Canaan, and they begat children and they were fruitful and multiplied.

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Next: Chapter 20

THE TWO WITNESSES OF REVELATION

Who are they?

How old will they be when they meet each other?

Why aren’t they known today?

Do they even have any sort of ministry today?

Are they living a life of as it were as some suggest purity and obedience to God?

Think about it! Why is there little known about these two and of all prophecies it is rare to talk about these two? We love to talk about the tribulation period and the many prophecies we try to figure out corresponds to some current event to denote to soon start of the trib. We love to guess who antichrist is and many movies generated about these sort of events. All the efforts to prove or disprove prophecy are ongoing entertainment. We long for Jesus’ return and presence in every way we can scenarios that might point to his soon return. But, missing nearly completely is discussions on the two witnesses. You can find all sort of site and books that try to explain theories some actually are close but you have to spend time finding them and most mock anyone’s idea about the TWO.

Well God has shown me a lot and I also usually avoid talking about this in my writings. I will not write specifics, as they remain too deep and fragile to loosen in a public blog, site, or meeting. Deep and fragile is because of the intimate position they hold with God and Jesus i.e. one on the right hand the other on the left hand of the incomprehensible God and Savior. My meaning is we are learning each day the infiniteness of the universe and have to go bonkers thinking God is everywhere even far beyond the trillions of light year astronomers can see. We seem to still put God in a box to control. These TWO will be at God’s side and there are those that say choose me like the apostles and like the mother asked Jesus:

Mark 10:37 they said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. (KJV)

Matt 20:20-21 20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. (KJV)

What comes with the position of the left and right is there is no living thing holds that position and so thinking and or desiring such a place maybe nice thoughts on the service to God, but hardly what the position entails. What it is will be 2 people God wants to be with (he wants to be with everyone for he so loved the world) but in spite of his love and no respecter of persons he does indeed got in mind two people in all of everyone that ever lived. These two are alive today.

Who are they?

They are not what or who can be found to be generally described by most Christian no matter their expertise of the topic. Most seem to copy paste the related direct verses that a lot of us know. Some want them to be non-human but symbols of Holy Spirit and Bible. Some want them to be Elijah and Moses or a mix of a short list of candidates. Well, the TWO have not been waiting:

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me (KJV). Though this is intriguing possibility, it is just not practical or likely. What is the most likely is two people were born so that their age would be appropriate to begin their ministry of first shutting off the WATER.

Both will be white males, but they are not white males based on ideas any other race would qualify or that a female would not qualify. It is just a FACT. Sort of guessing and wishing but actually like Spock’s guessing from Star Trek I will say they are from the USA. The USA holds many secrets in God’s plan. The USA is not so God fearing, but it is both the product of the best and the worst of humans. It is producing the main leaders of antichrist’s kingdom, though the highest elite are in the UK. The USA also provides much good. Over all what we assume about most countries is more what we want to hear than what is real.

I can probably give at least one name but won’t. The other could possibly be from another country, but time seems to be saying they will meet in the USA or have their home there.

How old will they be when they meet each other?

One will be older and one younger, how much I am not sure, but probably many years different. Probably has many meanings why the difference, maybe representing OT and NT. One can speak to the generation that won’t pass away till Jesus returns the other fill will in the holes of the generation gap that will begin to be the armies and followers of antichrist. I am being vague on purpose.

Why aren’t they known today?

This is a good question after all at least one of them been around the block once or twice. It is possible and likely both or one of them has a ministry, but not all that well known or that whatever they are doing is nothing that gains acceptance or attention. Most sights or sources that talks about them usually are fall fetched or unrealistic or in the realm of using just verses leaving you with well so then what questions. I find it frustrating to read sights concern the TWO because they claim either they are the TWO or that they are some sort of untouchable super humans.

God has separated them apart. No matter what they do or how great a message they speak they will be unheard. Should anyone see them little or no fanfare will be given. It is though they are in a sealed prison doomed to wait to the day they are called forth. What I see is a timeline for them to appear. Today they work, play, and live like most anyone. I rather doubt by what I find that they are highly educated, God is not looking for a Bible guru as it were. Nothing would stand out in their lives to tell anyone else they qualify for the position of the left or right side of God. I can get very detailed on much more on who they are but right now I am still restrained to do so. They will not be known probably till they speak the infamous words that stops the rain. I believe if one knew when the two met they could calculate up to within 75 days of the Rapture.

Do they even have any sort of ministry today?

Some parts answered above. I think they have a ministry and at least one for some time, mainly getting Holy Spirit training for their Trib ministry.

Are they living a life of as it were as some suggest purity and obedience to God?

The Bible goes into far more detail than the common few verses we readily know concerning them. It shows they are indeed sinners saved by grace. The Bible is not saying they are living Holier than Thou lives either. They are not as it were living in purity as some think a person of God should be. I bet that most Christians real reject them alone on just there over all lives, I am not saying these TWO are out purposely coming sins, but they are not living what we assume good shepherds of churches should live. Their language will not be every other word a quote from the Bible. Most Christian will want to kill them and will even help antichrist do that. These TWO will shock you so many ways you just pray for their deaths. They will bring such things that will bring you to the brink and many in fact huge numbers will turn from Jesus because they will see God is with them and they can’t accept that at all. These TWO will know how to aggravate you it is their mission from God to break you. It is not their mission to sin you to hell, but to keep you secure to live eternally with Christ Jesus. This cannot happen with current affair in the church. Their ministry that that they were born to do begins probably 2.5 years after they meet. It will last 1260 days, this is not so much their ministry as it is the time God requires to get his people ready for the Rapture. The rapture is compared to the Passover in that the Death Angel passed over the homes that had blood painted on the doorposts and door mantles. Likewise, 1260 days is required to paint Jesus’ Blood on you so that the angels with the harvest sickles can PLUCK you off Earth. If you are not Washed in the manner of 1260 days these sickles will slide off you. You will have to endure another 1260 days and then if you finally get it will get your physical body healed so you can live around 1000 years old, but still on Earth in your physical body.

God is great and Greatly to be Praised. These Last Days are much more complex than a simple fun time to hear how the bad folk get killed.

Happy to hear questions on these TWO I may answer some if I am allowed.

Ben said... How do you explain these verses

From: Ben [mailto:noreply-comment@blogger.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:18 PM
To: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com
Subject: [Stables Ministry Home of Gay For Jesus TV] New comment on landmark777@aol.com says, “everyone you tell this ....

Ben has left a new comment on your post "landmark777@aol.com says, “everyone you tell this ...":
How do you explain these verses (below) from Romans Chapter 1? It doesn't say anything about "temple prostitutes" as you argue - the bible is very clear on homosexuality! Please, friend, turn from this perversion and STOP trying doing what you are doing and stop trying to approve it!!!

gays4jesus: as we read what Ben said we find nothing except the assumption that it is talking about gays. Ben does not seem to know Paul’s day history. In my writings I very often go into detail about Paul’s day and that Paul saw on every street corner (as we today say there is a church on every corner) was a fertility temple. It is not up for guessing what took place inside these fertility temples. We know that their priest and other men even as much as amputated their body part so as to appear more female to the male customers.

I recently did a TV program from the ruins of the temple of Cybele. This goddess was considered to be the mother of the gods starting around the 2^nd century BC and was very important in Paul’s day.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

gays4jesus: Most homophobes do like Ben did just quote a verse without explanation and assume everyone auto understands it to be describing gays. This “God gave them over” phrase demands an answer to who are the “THEY” people. So let go to the Bible and find out who the “THEY” people are:

Rom 1:18-23 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Verse 18 begins the story and it is a specific story which you cannot insert any group you want because the group is about to be described in detail. Any group you insert must fall into the above and below descriptions if you want to include them in verses 18-32.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (KJV)

The “THEY” people are those that had time in their lives to know GOD. What homophobes do is redefine “glorified him not as God, neither were thankful” so that gays (though they could not be gay if God changed them to gay as Ben’s quoted verse 24-25 would mean). Real gays many are Christian and they Glorify God as defined and acted upon by whatever denomination understanding of that. Gays don’t invent Glorifying it is the denominations that invent a doctrine of Glorifying. Usually it is just a phrase said in church i.e. “I glorify you God” repeatedly. Generally, this phrase and thankfulness is genuine enough and inter-denominational that few contest the form of Glorifying God. So you have 650 million gays many are Christian and going to church and giving Glory to God in like manner and genuiness of heart as the str8 Christian next to them. How does Ben distinguish that these gay Christians are not Glorifying God. Answer is Ben like most homophobe cannot accept that God so loved the world that who so ever believes shall have eternal life. Ben needs to see a gay person change to str8 to be convinced they are now Christian. Thankfulness is also something that is not something hidden away from view. One can say thnk-you and not really mean it, but being Thankful to God is very well established over the last 2000 years and hardly questionable in church when people testify about being thankful to God. How did Ben determine gays doing exactly the same thanking God somehow are not thankful. Ben again has to assume being gay is auto not thankful.

Verse 24 – 25 say God did something. What homophobes tell you is that God made them gay. Or at best they completely disregard the detailed description given in 18-23 who the THEY PEOPLE are and simply assume God manipulated the gay person’s mind so they would start same sex sex and fulfill their evilness. This begs to have explained why gays worldwide and in all history are gay from a very young age. This means that today you have 650 million gays and the fact is they are gay and discover this at very young age, many before 9 some much before 9 and most by puberty. Am I guessing, why should I guess? Do I have facts? Yes, 10s of 1000s of interviews. Many decades of studying and research. Gays many are Chrisstian just like str8s at a very young age, so they “KNEW GOD” they were thankful in the same since str8 Christian operate in thankfulness to God. Gays did not turn from GOD to gods. They did not once know God then stopped knowing him and they did not stop Glorifying GOD. YES as many str8s turn from GOD because of tough life many gays having better reasons because homophobes express that God hate them so often feel that God must hate them and so turn from him. Always will have those that turn from God. But the most do not trun from God. After all he is TRUTH. It is a myth gays are not Christian or can’t be.

God gave them over?? 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity… How did Ben determine the sinful desire? And how did Ben decide it was sexual impurity? Have to exam real FACTS what are gays doing? In the case of this implied verse, it would be sexual. So what is it that gays do sexually? Well to best understand gay sex is to look at yourself the str8 person. Every gay knows everything about str8 sex from the get go. They know you upside down and backwards because you tell them the details of every sex act you do and why you do it. TV, books, stories, history, and much more talks about what str8s do. Str8s and gays know all the good and bad about str8 sexualness. We and you know about your raping, Your dominating your love your dating everything thinkable about str8 sex in a known. Now you knowing str8 sex meaning why and how you started it why can’t you understand gay sex? Once upon a time your body said I want a opposite sex partner. This occurred not because of TV or mommy saying one day you will grow up and get married. What really happened was you found you wanted SEX with the opposite sex. You knew to get this meant you must follow a process. Part of wanting sex is wanting love so don’t get me wrong or assume I am make it all the act of sex and not an act of love. You found at the age of 9 -12 on average you wanted to get it on with the opposite sex. Part of all this is companionship and the warm fuzzys of love. But a good part of it is you want to sex act and what you can do to get it. Often it could mean patiently waiting years. Most of the time as research proves Christians have sex on their first date. Christian str8s often have a number of sexual partners before marrying. Whatever is right or Bible does seem to effect the numbers of sexual partners str8 Christians have before settling down with one for life, again this is still going to produce 60% divorce rate in Christian str8s. The Bible explains marriage is an evolution. If you say the Bible says one person, then why do 100% of the patriarchs in the Bible have a multitude of sexual partner all very legal. The real Bible days (meaning Jesus times) you refer to about marriage is when marriage was a planned by leaders of the family (MEN) and how it would profit each family. The marriage couple had no choice in who they would marry. Using the conditions of marriage in Jesus’ day you can find many Bible gay marriages.

This long rambling I am doing is to point out that you do know that str8s that end up married know very well how they got into bed with their spouse and rarely any str8 Christian condemns (except jokingly) how the finally met their spouse. The most disgusting testimonies are the extremely rare met spouse in junior high and did not have sex till we got married after high school/college. These type ministers teach often the impossibility of the most people real lives to do what that person did. What is also known the type lives these so called purist lived is bazaar at best. Long story short, you know your life so well why can’t you know gay people’s loves and be able to compare it with the verses homophobes use?

Gays in fact discover they are gay about the same age that str8s discover they are str8. Again str8 assume the are str8 (gay do to) but it is the time of life when you begin to want to be with someone that you discover you really are str8 indeed because you got the hots for the opposite sex. Gay don’t have the luxury of forced down them from birth they are str8 and then find at that age they enter heat. Horny reigns whether you want to admit it or not. Yeah, I am exaggerating the point but you know what I mean. Most of you ached in desire to be with someone. You anchored yourself by the phone hoping it would ring and zap, you got that date. Yet you do not call it verse 26-27 shameful lust or vile. You call it puppy love.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

gays4jesus: Before I get sick in that Ben is using a satan counterfeit bible. I must let all you readers know that all modern version Bibles are from Westcott and Hort, these 2 were occultists in the 1880s, they hated KJV with a passion and the colleges of the day were convinced that so called true believers with way behind the time in scientific advancement that the Bible was way wrong and against what science has come to know in those 1800s. Westcott and Hort took the Catholics corrupt Latin Vulgate manuscript (from the 2^nd century translation) and translated it into Greek (a bazaar form of it) and then back into English. These 2 were very influential and got their whole translation to become the official Church of England’s Bible where all modern versions comes from. Depending on the Bible version there are 50,000 to 80,000 corruptions designed to take Christ out of Jesus.

Now after my long winded discourse about you knowing str8 sex you need to re-read 26-27 and find the parts that match your life. I bet you will say it is not about you. You say that because even though you did go to bed with other people beside your spouse you consider that part of growing up and settling down and not to serious and if anything a fun source of joking how much of a slut you might have been. Just beside some of you readers may not have had much of a sexual life before your spouse does not make you common, but in fact rare. Saying that makes you more special is senseless because we have 2000 years of Christianity that says playing around before spouse does not seem to change the miracles and blessings and so forth in your life. Crisis happens to anyone blaming your sins often is not the true source. Too many things to compare in life and no pattern that could support less or more blessings and or rewards to receive in Heaven. The pattern that comes out is Christians persecuting Christians, this has had and will have substantial effect on the coming days.

Now knowing yourself and what you call love in your relationship you should be able to compare with gays. Verse 26-27 is a vivid description of something quite strange indeed. It indicates a minimal and orgies. So what in Paul’s day did Paul see or know about that inspired him to write 18-32? Well first of most important is the Bible is the word of God so Paul was inspired by God and cannot write person opinions except those conditioned in him by God from birth. What Paul wrote was what God showed him and inspired him to write and later inspired believers and non-believers to save and later be available to be decided to be put in the Bible hundreds of years later. Paul was instrumental in getting God’s message to us today. It is not as also the rest of the Bible something that can be attributed only to Paul or other writer’s but only by God’s inspiration. However, we have access to all things via internet, false things as well as the truth. This can take time and patient to weed through. Don’t come to me with something you accidently came across by accident. Show me the effort you took to find the background on your surprising revelation. Revelation will never be against the Bible. If you can not show the Bible then it cannot be taught as a revelation by God even if it was a revelation. God’s word is the judge of God’s revelation.

So, what did Paul do and see while in Corinth and Rome? I said earlier he saw a fertility temple on every corner. While in Corinth Paul went into a temple that had over 1000 temple prostitutes this is a FACT. Also many orgy rooms. Sex rituals was done in worshipping the gods of Paul’s day. In that very temple was that very statue to the unknown god. Paul spoke at that temple. It was the largest and most famous temple in Corinth.

Research Paul’s day all you want, you will not find that Paul visited the gay community, (which was not like today because gay was not so separated like today, gays were integrated and though there were as many as 9 Greek words that could be used for real gays, Paul did not use any of them. We cannot easily see any of the Bible writers have any obvious history around real gays. Too see real gays takes more time to find because gays we called by phrases and or terms not easily recognize in our day. All real gays in the Bible at least 5 more obvious and many mentions of gays that you really need to know the times and how gays were discussed in those days.

In the fertility temple sex to gods and goddesses through male and female temple prostitutes were a daily often event. Male temple prostitutes were far more sacred; they often cut off the male part and dressed like women. This does not render transvestites sin. Paul’s concern were Hebrew men went to these temples to have ritual sex with the male temple prostitutes (sodomites in the Greek and Hebrew word):

6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe');from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.

Also for nature and natural: 5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591. 5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

Summarizing: seed and instinct. Meaning in the Greek sentence grammar an apple tree cannot produce oranges when its blossoms come. Born gay you cannot become str8 when dating age comes. “Born gay” is very significant. Because a phrase in Jesus’ day “born eunuch” meant gays. This is not a fly by night wish, but one of intensive research into writings of Jesus day rendering it an absolute. Wishing this phrase can’t mean gays means you fail to study actual facts of Jesus day. All I can do is wish you would. Praying you would heh heh, you won’t want that, because that prayer is going to be answered and you won’t like it.

Gays learn they are gay very young and they like you seek to find someone to share love as you sought and may still be seeking. They make love, they date they fall in love they make a home just like you do. What you are required to do is show the Bible condemning gays that are performing a life like you are performing. You need to show Paul saying I saw a gay couple who have been in love and lived together for these 20 years. They are benefits to the community in many ways with their skills as good supports to the community and they are the best employee of the companies they work at. They take great care of their biological family in crisis and much more good reports. Paul need to condemn these in the Bible so then you can say gay is sin., Now if you go to a gay bar and see gays kissing and holding hands and dancing, you must also go to a str8 bar to condemn such. If you see in that bar 2 gays go to one’s home and they have sex, you have to go to the str8 bar and see the str8 pair go to one of their homes and have sex. This comes behaviors with like behaiviors. Generally no str8 person will condemn a night out in regards to meet someone for companionship or love or simply a good time. Bath houses or other perceived sexual immoralities are extremely common for str8s and so hardly a way to condemn gays because some go to bathhouses. It comes down to what did Paul really talk about? Str8 adults turned from GOD to gods so God gave them over to join in the sexual rituals of the orgies in fertility temples these Hebrew turned to in actual too large of numbers to disregard. Compare apples to apples.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

gays4jesus: 650 million gays in the world and at least that many that have lived and died in history. So these verses should be the simple and clear gay is not sin proof. Gays are about as opposite as you can get from 28-32. They are great leaders, best employees, they take care of your health needs, it is known if gays were banned from the health care field it would collapse. They are pillars in family crisis. The good works as it were of gays can go on in volumes. How does Ben show gays are this reprobate mind and commit these fowl deeds. Most of the list most people are committing in some form or other and more than one in the list. This to be meaningful has to be people that are in great disregard of all morals and gays are not even remotely connected to those disregards. You can always find str8s doing really sick sexual immoral things, gays are human and not exempt from those things str8s do.

Bottom line is if you really want to condemn gays or say the Bible says it not you, then please what manner of method can I request from you to take time to explain how you came to the conclusion a verse condemns gays. Gays are not stupid, as it appears you assume. They know they are not doing what you claim the Bible says they are doing. They know they are doing what you do in the romance department. But you so insist they are raping an in orgies and are prostitutes in fertility temples.

In my 62 years I have yet to find any homophobe take the time to show real gays in the Bible and explain how they got gays into the verses they use. I have interviewed or in some way talk or heard from 800,000 plus homophobes can you be the first to explain how you get gays into a verse?

Posted by Ben at October 1, 2009 2:18 PM

gays4jesus:commented by gays4jesus

landmark777@aol.com says, “everyone you tell this lie to their blood will be on your hands.”

From: landmark777@aol.com [mailto:landmark777@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:21 PM
To: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com
Subject: New Harvest Ministries

Hello,

gays4jesus: You are not saying “hello” more appropriately from you would have been just “your are going to hell” “hello” is a friendly jester of greeting not of about to attack.
My name is Evangelist Mark Poff and I'm with New Harvest Ministries from Kingsport Tennessee.

gays4jesus: I am John 35 years in the Assemblies of God, weekly preaching on TV since 1985, a Pentecostal 62 year old gay man and been with my lover for 20 years..
I came across your website by mistake.

gays4jesus: God does not make mistakes; you came across my website by his direction. You did not come to me to tell me gay is wrong, you were sent to me so you could hear “gay is not sin and Jesus is not asking the gay person to change and be str8”

I saw where you all believe that a person can be gay and still go to heaven.

gays4jesus: Yes, this took an accumulation of a lifetime of studying. However, it takes less than a few minutes to know many of the verses used against gays does not talk about gays. You see you need to know history and how the ancient Bible words were used in those days. You also need to know how certain GREEK or HEBREW words were written down by Christian ministers that we have today documented. Such as “arsenokoites”. Since Paul and for the next 1600 years it can only be shown to have been used 76 times by Christians. The entire documents by these writers are intact and so their entire writing is preserved so there is no guessing what they wrote. This word used commonly today to mean” gays” was never used for gays but was used for sex out of species. We also know for an absolute FACT Paul walked the streets of Rome and Corinth and it could almost be said there was a fertility temple on every corner, these temples had known “male temple prostitutes”. It is not written that Paul went to real gay couples and observed how they lived. But it is again a known FACT that Paul toured the largest fertility temple and in that temple was the statue to the known god. In that temple as a FACT again was over 1000 temple prostitutes and many orgy rooms. Ritual sex was common and Hebrews turned to these other gods and joined in this ritual sex. This is not guessing or wishing. You as an evangelist should have long ago learned about these temples Paul could see every day from about anywhere he would be.

HAVE YOU ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!!!!

gays4jesus: I guess I have if you call studying the loosing of one’s mind. Gays just don’t come to Jesus to just find a way to justify anything about their lives. Gays comes to Jesus because “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son” God is “TRUTH” “seek the truth and the truth shell set you free” seeking the truth means doing a lot of studying and research. After all so many Christians condemns gays a gay person often has to really go much deeper in the Bible than str8 Christians.

The bible clearly say for man NOT to
lay with man. For a man to be with a man is SIN, and sin WILL NOT enter heaven.

gays4jesus: this “the Bible clearly says” phrase is so common with homophobes, but missing 100% of the time is to show where it is talking about real gays. 7 of the 14 verses used against gays use the word for “male temple prostitute”. Well gays are not male temple prostitutes and you know this, this is what is so sick about so many homophobes they act so stupid like they think male temple prostitute and gay are the same word.

In the verse:

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (KJV)

The is the original Hebrew. Right in many translations it will tell you often some word the full meaning is not brought over. We know the Greek word love has a few word while English has one word and so English needs more words to explain what kind of love and the Greek just needs the one word and you know the meaning. I Lev. 20:13 the Hebrew word man has a very specific one word meaning that translator don’t bring over. Translators say man, but reading in Hebrew it is “practicing str8 man”. What’s more the entire verse can actually correctly be translated to English 13 ways. 3 of those ways can actually say simply “man” however, using the simple “man” here would destroy and render the verse un-readable by Hebrew readers. The other 10 ways to translate the verse keeps the verse readable in Hebrew, but explain to English readers exactly what kind of man it is. It is a man that has been having sex with women and loves it. One of the men in the Lev. Story is str8. The other man is a “temple prostitute”. The word “abomination” is used in many forms in the OT and the NT and many times. Listing every form of it in the Bible you get quite a list of verses. All but one has the same rendering and that is it just has to be disgusting because it is worshipping other gods. The act must be that of a ritual to other gods specifically.

This is used in the man with man and must include other god rituals:

8441 tow` ebah (to-ay-baw'); or to` ebah (to-ay-baw'); feminine active participle of 8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: KJV-- abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

This is what should have been in the man with man verse if you really wanted it to be just disgusting snf this is how homophobes wants the man with man to mean:

8262 shaqats (shaw-kats'); a primitive root; to be filthy, i.e. (intensively) to loathe, pollute:

KJV-- abhor, make abominable, have in abomination, detest, X utterly. 8262 shaqats (shaw-kats'); a primitive root; to be filthy, i.e. (intensively) to loathe, pollute: KJV-- abhor, make abominable, have in abomination, detest, X utterly.

The Bible is not up to whatever you want to interrupt a word to mean, it has to mean what it did when it was written not what the future will evolve it to mean.

Yes, God loves the sinner but hates the sin.

gays4jesus: Only God can love the sinner and h ate the sin, when man tries this God act he ends up hating the sinner too and worst he persecutes innocent people far too often.
If your message is you can be gay and still go to heave then your WRONG!!!

gays4jesus: My message has tons of research and backup and I am happy to go into as deep as detail as you want concerning history, the ancient language, real gays of today and of Jesus and Moses’ day. My daily hope and prayer is that just one of you homophobes would do the same, but at least 800,000 and now with you 800,001 homophobes later still no concrete results of homophobes studying and presenting their findings. So far I only get these short phrases from homophobes “God says it”, “it’s in the Bible”, “it’s so simple”, “it so clear”, “it’s sin” sometimes one of the 14 verses (invented by a few powerful Catholic leaders 700 years ago to create scan to purge men from power)”, or some other really short phrase avoiding responsible answers to give to gays that you are so sure are going to hell, but somehow you can’t find time to explain how you get real gays into the Bible.

and for everyone you tell this lie to there blood will be on your hands.

gays4jesus: The real FACT about the Bible is a set 1260 days is prepared to spank the Church for 2000 years of disobedience to God. High on that list is the persecuting of innocent people. My ministry is a “Last Days” ministry. I have been preaching on this since 1985 and so have done tons of research. And though you can’t accept it God reveals many things to me concerning his soon return. 3.5 billion people will be killed that you will see happen if you are not one of the 3.5 billion. Christians will think Jesus forsook them because of an event the TWO Witnesses will perform. False doctrines, conditionings and more must be washed from you before the Rapture. You won’t like the coming message from God until you begin to understand you are wrong about many things.
May God Open Your Eyes,
Evangelist Mark Poff

gays4jesus: I am 62 and I did not come to Jesus on a whim. Jesus came to me and devout atheist for 21 years. There was no way I would believe in any god, so I guess something must have change my mind huh? By the way I was never desperate or a drunk or a druggy or broke or anything that would present need for a hope of deliverance fro sad life. I was 100% convinced because of facts and absolutes that gay was not wrong in any way.

Miracles are almost taken for granite by me. I have had 3 dramatic instant healing in my physical body. Answered prayer is normal for me. Impossible prayers often are answered within the hour at times. Christian near and far go out of their way to tell me God is with me. Pastors confide in me. I can right this moment buy a plane ticket and with a promise from several foreign pastor to have 10,000 people within 4 days ready to hear me. I am boasting because I want to give you some basic fact about my life that you will need to explain away. Often homophobes say satan is giving me all this.

At any time I am willing to go to any homophobe church by myself and deal with the gay issue in a challenge. I.E. your “New Harvest Ministries from Kingsport Tennessee” do all you know to bring God presence or message showing gay is sin. You can operate in the Holy Spirit, as your faith believes. Then after I committed to your process as to willing yield to what you believe so that you can administer your faith through the Lord Jesus Christ. It will be my turn after giving you the time you think something should have would have happened. I then will operate in the holy Spirit calling on the name of Jesus. Please please forgive me because I cheat because I know I have the upper hand and know Jesus will move as I speak. I also know he will not move as you speak on this issue.

I kknow homophobe can’t accept such a challenge so hey, at least write back and tell me why you think anyplace in the bible condemns gays. I am again not asking for a verse quote but a efforted study results that produces how you get “sodomite” to be a Jesus Day word for gays and other such support to your belief that gay is sin. I know you cannot find facts about the bible to condemn gays. All you can do is quote a verse you are conditioned to quote and think it is all you need do. You already gave my your short form of hatred, so now give me why you hate gays by breaking down parts of the verse you think condemns gays. Also, I really got to know why all the ex-gay ministries do not change anyone. I have spent lots of research and first hand interviewing of ex-gays and ex-gay leaders and all their doctrines and processes and beliefs from the denominational background. So please be assured I know the background of the gay issue. You can’t even image what wonderful things God has or what blessings he has bestowed on you direct from those you condemn to hell. Gay Christian are a very active part of the Body of Christ and are being prepared to help you as you more than you can realize.

John