'Brian Stehle's won’t give Hebrew/Grammar but I do

From: gaysforjesus647 [mailto:gaysforjesus647@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:07 AM
To: 'Brian Stehle'
Subject: RE: gays for jesus?

In other words for you it is just fine to assume gay is sin and you have no obligations to help a gay person understand how they being gay is sin. I have researched this issue since 1974. I know the history and the usage of the Hebrew and Greek regarding this topic (beside a ton of other topics) I know present fact about gays and those that condemn them, I know the step by step process of how and why people invented this false doctrine against gays. I know details about hundreds of exgay leaders and ministries. I have talked with and had contacts with way over 800,000 homophobes. Do you know that the most scholarly persons on the Bible do just like you are doing, they won't give the time of day presenting facts showing gay is sin. Like you these hundreds of thousands of Christians that contacted me say, "it's in the Bible" God hates it" quote a verse with the assumption they did their job to prove gay is sin by saying the verse" There are many short phrases homophobes use to condemn gays like I just gave you. What I never get from any Christian that thinks gay is sin is something like this:

Hebrew Grammar and

This section is provided as a supplement to the discussions above involving Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

Traditional Reading

It is interesting to note that even the traditional English translation and interpretation of this verse is not quite the literal. Traditionally, heterosexist bible translators have presumed to translate the whole phrase, "lyings of/with woman" or "ones-lying-with woman", as a direct object noun. But, it is worth mentioning that they choose to insert "with" (rather than "of") indicating association rather than possession. That is, they parse the literal verse as, "With man, you shall not lie lyings (performed) with woman..." And, from this, they translate into English,

"You shall not lie with man as with woman...”

The English phrase "as with woman" is vague, and it is not clear whether they mean "the lying done with woman" or "belonging to/done by women". The Hebrew euphemism of "lying" means penetrative, sexual intercourse (according to Talmudic commentary). So, this is more likely to be the lying done by a man to a woman.

The English phrase suffers from some ambiguity that reveals the ambiguity in the actual Hebrew. Two questions are,

1. Who is the actor associated with the ambiguous phrase "as with woman"? As who with woman?

2. What happened to the word "lyings" in the phrase? It has been omitted. That is, one asked the question, as who does what with woman? The what is surely "lyings", but its omission only serves to draw the reader away from the nature of the original text.

The ambiguity primarily lies with the who. The reader is left to interpret even the English verse:

"You shall not lie with man as you lie with woman..."
or,

"You shall not lie with man as one lies with woman..."
or,

"You shall not lie with man as we lie with woman..."

The solution chosen has a significant effect on the meaning, since if the word "you" speaks to the reader, how each reader lies with a woman will be different. Consequently, the meaning each reader gets is personal and different: Practicing homosexual men would not lie with women sexually at all. Non-practicing homosexual men who in reality actually are attracted to men, but who do lie sexually with women, do so in a guise of deceit to the woman. Finally, to heterosexual men, it would have its commonly interpreted meaning.

In all cases above, the meaning of the English word, "as" also inserts ambiguity. Does it mean "like", or does it mean "while"? Which is chosen will, of course, change the meaning of the whole verse.

Since there is an ambiguity, we really ought to look at the original Hebrew wording. Though we will find a slightly different one there.

New Reading

With all this said, the question remains, how else can the verse be translated? The traditional translation represents the Hebrew "lyings-with woman" as "as with woman". What form of the verb should we use for (mishk'vey)? As with the traditional reading, the gerund or participle form ("lyings-with" or "ones-who-lie-with") (which turns the verb into a noun or adjective) seems to be the most popular. Further, reading it as "lyings-with" seems to be more common despite the fact that Kohlenberger treats the word as a participle "ones-lying-with", in 18:22. Ironically, although it is the traditional reading used, that reading is just as easily used in a gay-tolerant manner (though either can work).

The phrase "lyings-with woman", can easily be read as a adjective phrase describing either the man being laid with, or the man doing the lying (the "you"). It refers to a man who has lyings with women, a man of lyings with woman, a man of woman-lyings, a sleeper-of-woman, which in modern terms is a practicing heterosexual man. Literally, Lev 18:22 is,

Lev 18:22

"And male not you-lie-with lyings-with woman, detestable it-is."

So, it could be read as any of the following,

· "And you shall not lie with man lyings-with woman, it is detestable."

· "And you shall not lie with man, you who has lyings with woman..."

· "And you shall not lie with man, you who lies with woman..."

· "And you shall not lie with man who has lyings with woman..."

· "And you shall not lie with man who lies with woman..."

The word "man" can also refer to the person being addressed, the implied "you", since the subject can precede the verb especially in cases where stress on the verb is intended. In either case, Kohlenberger's participle phrase translation "ones-who-lie-with" works well:

"And male not you-lie-with ones-who-lie-with woman, detestable that."

Which is,

"And you, man, shall not lie with those who lie with woman, it is detestable."

As mentioned earlier, the lyings are experienced by the one penetrated, and performed by the one penetrating.

Using "ones lying-with" also works just as well when "male" refers to one of those lying with women:

· "And a male you shall not lie with ones who lie with woman..."

· "And you shall not lie with man of those who lie with woman..."

In all of the cases above, this passage is read as a prohibition against sleeping with men who sleep with women, practicing heterosexuals/bisexuals (as practicing heterosexual men would either be married men or adulterers):

· "You shall not lie with man lying with woman..."

· "You shall not lie with man who lies with woman..."

Also, the time at which these lyings with women is taking place is open to interpretation. The phrase could simply refer to a general practice, or to an activity happening at the same time (multiple partner sex).

We should not forget the other passage. Lev 20:13 is literally,

"And-man who he-lies with male lyings-with woman..."

or, using Kohlenberger's alternate translation,

"And-man who he-lies with male ones-lying-with woman..."

As in Lev 18:22, this lends itself to the same permutation of possible readings, except that in this case, it the adjectival phrase, "lyings-with woman" more clearly describes the male being lain with. If we choose the translation, "lyings-with woman", we get,

· "And man who lies with man having lyings with woman..."

· "And man who lies with man who lies with woman..."

Still, it may refer to the man being addressed, although the adjective phrase is placed at a more considerable distance from the subject of the sentence. Nevertheless, we have:

· "And man, who lies with man, and having lyings with woman..."
(Both phrases referring to the man doing the lying)

· "And man, who lies with man, and who lies with woman..."
(Both phrases referring to the man doing the lying)

Likewise, if we choose the translation "ones-lying-with woman", the phrase is restricted to describing the male being lain with. "Ones-lying-with", if used to comprise an adjective phrase, is plural, and "you" is strictly singular. Similarly, the word for "male" is singular. But, the word "male", (zaachaar), is very often used in its singular form when implying one member of a plural male group. In this case, it is one male from those ones who lie with woman.

· "And man who lies with male (of) ones who lie with woman..."

· "And man who lies with a man (of) those who lie with woman..."

The reading above borders on a genitive usage. "Ones-lying-with" may be thought of as a construct state noun, which precedes the genitive woman. But, the word "ones-lying-with" itself may also be though of as genitive, and hence "male" can be thought of as a construct state noun preceding that genitive. There is no rule that there be any agreement in number for genitive nouns.

In this case, we have a translation of Lev 20:13,

· "And man who lies with male of ones who lie with woman..."

· "And man who lies with a man of those who lie with woman..."

The insertion of the word "of" between a noun and its associated adjective or genitive is an acceptable and common practise (Joshua 5:4, "the men (of) the war", i.e., "the war men", "the soldiers"). As is well known, genitive nouns form a kind of adjective. Also note how there is no forced agreement in number here.

We also note that the phrase "ones-lying-with woman" may serve as a substantive noun (it contains a gerund, after all), which may be described by the word "male" (which can be a noun, but which is usually used as an adjective). However, usually, adjectives follow the nouns the modify.

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Introduction

The Tanakh (Old Testament)

Reclaiming Leviticus 18:22

...and Lev 20:13

Sodom and the Rape of Angelic Guests

David and Jonathan become Soul-mates

And, for followers of Paul,

Paul's Writings (New Testament)

Paul's Pagans

Natural vs. Unnatural

Penalties in their Persons: Venereal Disease

Paul's Coined Terms

Hebrew Grammar and

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Introduction

Everybody knows that the bible says different things depending on who translates, interprets, and reads it. And, some prideful people like to think that they have a monopoly on the "correct" reading. A friend of mine once asked me if the passages that are often quoted as being "anti-gay" are really so. I was surprised at the question since, too often, advocates of equal human rights and religious freedom for gay people needlessly concede to the contrary claims of their opponents (as if their opponents truly did have a monopoly). And so, knowing the immense flexibility of reading in many parts of the bible, I went to work to answer her question.

Finding gay-tolerant interpretations and translations of the bible is easier than one might at first think. The purpose of this discussion is to briefly explain how the bible can be soundly read in a gay-tolerant manner. It is not to attack other interpretations. There are perhaps hundreds of versions of the bibles now printed in English. Many of them already contain a particular doctrinal slant in their translations. The mere fact that some of them contain extraneous descriptive heading paragraphs and comments embedded along with many verses attests to this. Others simply skew the translation in favor of doctrine (Isaiah 7:14 and chapter 53 are glaring examples).

To help cut through all this, we need a common and objective bible; so, we need to work with the actual Hebrew and Greek texts. Fortunately for those not familiar with these ancient languages, there are bibles, which contain these texts and the literal translations. These are called interlinear bibles because they have the literal English word(s) printed under each Hebrew or Greek word. There are only a few of these published for the Hebrew Old Testament. The best one I have found is John Kohlenberger's Hebrew-English Interlinear Old Testament (ISBN 0-310-40200-X). It is the most literal of the lot. Interlinear New Testaments can be found fairly easily. I recommend one called The Greek-English Interlinear New Testament (ISBN 0-8407-8357-4). You can usually find these at bookstores that will place orders, and in good libraries.

So, with that, we begin.

The Old Testament

Reclaiming Leviticus 18:22

We start with the passage that is first quoted by haters of gay folk, Leviticus 18:22. In Hebrew, it literally reads:

Lev 18:22

Hebrew is read from right to left, so, beginning at the right, we have,

Table 1: Sentence Parsing for Lev 18:22
	Hebrew	English	Part of speech (Hebrew)
	v'es	And	conjunction
	zaachaar	male, or, man	noun or adjective
	lo	not	qualifier
	tishkav	you-lie-with	verb (Kal), fut 2p(3p)sm
	mishk'vey	lyings (with-), of-lyings (with-) or, ones-lying (with-), of-ones-lying (with-)or, beds (of-), in-beds (of-)	gerund (verbal noun) or participle (verbal adjective) or plain noun
	ishaw	woman	noun
	to'eyvaa	detestable	noun/adjective
	hi	that	pronoun

So, this is literally,

"v'es zaachaar lo tishkav mishk'vey ishaw to'eyvaa hi."

"And man not you-lie-with lyings with-woman detestable that."
"And man not you-lie-with ones-who-lie with-woman detestable that."
"And man not you-lie-with in-beds of-woman detestable that."

A Few Initial Grammar Points

I do not want to bore the reader with the following discussion of grammar, but I think it is quite helpful to know.

The word (mishk'vey) is a noun. Specifically, it can be either a gerund, a participle, or a plain noun. What? Those of you familiar with English grammar may know that a gerund is a noun that is built from a verb (and is sometimes called a "verbal noun"). It can serve as a verbal noun or adjective, but always with an emphasis on the action (in abstract) rather than the doer. It represents the abstract concept of the verb. For example, in the English sentence, "Living is preferable to dying," both "living" and "dying" are gerunds. They occupy the place of nouns in the sentence. But, they are built from the verbs, "live" and "die". A participle also serves as a verbal noun/adjective, but with emphasis on the doer, not the action. In the sentence, "We offer a prayer for the living and for the dying," the two words are intended to refer to "those who are living" and "those who are dying". Again they are nouns. All of this is true for gerunds and participles in Hebrew as well. Furthermore, all nouns can be used as adjectives (either directly or by being considered as in the genitive case).

Although usually considered a gerund, (mishk'vey) is translated by some scholars as a participle, "ones-lying" or "those-lying". Kohlenberger (editor of the Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible) does this in Lev 18:22,

"And man not you-lie-with ones-who-lie with-woman detestable that."

But, if translated as a gerund, it means "lyings", "lyings-with", or translated as a plain noun, it can mean "beds (of-)" or "in-beds (of-)". Kohlenberger uses it as a gerund in Lev 20:13.

"And man who he-lies with male lyings of-woman detestable they-did..."

Note, I enclose the preposition "of-" in parentheses only to indicate that it is more properly part of the genitive noun that follows "beds" (in the case of Lev 18:22, "...beds of-woman"). But, some interlinear translators prefer to associate the preposition with the noun that precedes the genitive (such as writing "beds-of woman"). This is because it is that noun which changes its ending (when plural) when a genitive noun follows it. But, we choose to stick the preposition with the genitive noun itself, as is the common practice in Western languages. It makes no actual difference to this discussion.

There is some room for variation in Kohlenberger's translation, as you will see soon (for instance, "of-woman" can also be "with-woman", and as you have seen above, "lyings" can mean "beds"). For now, let me say a few more things about the grammar.

The verb root of tishkav () means to "lie down" and can carry either a simple meaning of lying, a bed, or a connotation of having sex (Lev 19:20). What is interesting is that if this were a simple prohibition against any kind of man-to-man sexual act, then the qualifying phrase, ("lyings with-woman" or "ones-lying with-woman") would be unnecessary. "tishkav" is used in many places, without qualification, to mean sexual sleeping. Exodus 22:19 uses "lie (with-)", without any qualification, to refer to forbidden sex with animals. Further examples are Exodus 22:16, 20:12; Genesis 19:32,34, 30:15, 39:7,12,14; Lev 20:20; Deut 22:22,23,25,28, 2nd Sam 11:11, 12:11, 13:11). The word, however, can also be used non-sexually. But, when it appears in lists of sexual laws, the context makes the sexual meaning evident.

Further discussion on this subject is found below in the section on Hebrew grammar.

At any rate, the literal translation using mishk'vey as either a gerund or a participle allows for several translations/readings, which span the spectrum in meaning. Here are several possible readings:

1. "And you shall not lie with a man of lyings with woman..." (g)
2. "And you shall not lie with a man of those lying with woman..." (p)
3. "And you shall not lie with a man who has lyings with woman..." (g,p)
4. "And you, of those lying with woman, shall not lie with a man..." (p)
5. "And you, of lyings with woman, shall not lie with a man..." (g)
6. "And you, having lyings with woman, shall not lie with a man..." (g)
7. "And you shall not lie with a man (as you have) lyings with woman..." (g)
   1. "And you shall not lie with a man (like you have) lyings with woman..." (g)
   2. "And you shall not lie with a man (while you have) lyings with woman..." (g)
8. "And you shall not lie in beds of woman with a man..." (g)
9. "And you shall not lie lyings of woman with a man..." (g)
10. "And you shall not lie with a man as a woman lies..." (g)
11. "And you shall not lie with a man as (one) lies with woman..." (g)
12. "And you shall not lie with a man as (you) lie with woman..." (g)
13. "And you shall not lie with a man as with woman..." (g)

In each translation, the manner in which the noun, mishk'vey, is interpreted is denoted by (g) for gerund, and (p) for participle.

Detailed Discussion

These eleven variations run the range between the traditional anti-gay interpretation (#8 to #12) and a distinctively different, anti-promiscuity, anti-adultery interpretation (#1 to #7). It is worth pointing out that Translations #1 to #6 are explicitly not anti-gay.

People on opposite ends of the political spectrum will of course accuse the others of choosing the wrong translation. That is the nature of different factions, denominations, and religions.

In the translations above, the words in parenthesis denote words that must be inserted for the meaning to be made clear. What is interesting to note is that the meaning most commonly found in Bibles (#12) requires that we both remove the word "lyings-with" and insert "as with". By doing this, bible editors effectively mask the other possible meanings which are obvious to the reader only once the literal words "lying-with" are shown. So, the unsuspecting reader gets the false sense that there can be only one interpreted meaning.

From translations #1 to #3, we get the meaning that a man must not have sexual lyings (intercourse) with another man who is sleeping with a woman. In translation #1, the phrase, ("lyings-with woman" or "bedding of-woman") is a gerund noun phrase used as an adjective that describes the man being lain with, "zaachaar". As far as his activity is concerned, this is a "man of lyings-with woman", a "man of the beds of woman", a "woman-sleeping man", that is, a "man who sleeps sexually with woman". In modern terms, a "man of lyings with woman" would be what we know as a heterosexual man (ancient Hebrew had no word for heterosexual). A man who lies with both woman and man is, in modern terms, a practicing bisexual. Thus, translations #1 to #3 seem to forbid bisexual activity. Homosexuals and heterosexuals who stick to a policy of monogamy, then, are following this law.

We note that adjectives or adjective phrases usually follow the noun they describe, and indirect objects usually follow the verb. However, an indirect object may be repositioned in front of the verb for emphasis. This is the case here. "zaachaar" is placed before the verb for emphasis, but would otherwise fit in between the verb, "tishkav", and "mishk'vey".

Translation #2 is similar to #1, except that it treats (mishk'vey) as a participle ("those-lying-with" or "of-those-lying-with") rather than a gerund. It is still used to describe the man with whom the addressee is not to lie.

Translation #3 reflects the meaning you would get regardless of whether "mishk'vey" is treated as a participle or a gerund.

Translations #4 to #6 are very similar to #1 to #3, except that they interpret the adjectival phrase to describe the man being addressed. They have effectively the same meaning, but are only addressing a man who, himself, has sexual intercourse with women ("you of-lyings-with woman" or "you of those who lie with woman"). This keeps with the general grammatical rule that, in Hebrew, adjectives usually directly follow the nouns they describe (the subject "you" is implied in the verb, tishkav).

The issue of just to whom the phrase "lyings-with woman", or "ones-lying-with woman" applies -- the man doing the lying, or the man being lain with -- is very important in determining the meaning of this verse, and translations #1 to #3, and #4 to #6, reflect this.

Also lending to some diversity is the use of the English word "as" in translating the phrase. As translations #7, 7.1, and 7.2 show, "as" can take on several meanings, all of which can reflect a possible interpretation of the literal Hebrew as well.

Translations #8 to #13 treat the phrase as a direct object, rather than an adjective. Specifically, #8 renders both words of the phrase in the genitive case, "in-beds of-woman".

What about translations #9 to #13? The English wording ("as with woman") commonly seen in English bibles obscures the actual Hebrew structure, but many concordances list the phrase as being literally "lyings(-with) of-woman", "lyings of-woman", or even the singular, "lying of-woman". They are treating the word "woman" as genitive (as do Translations #1 to #8), and inserting an implied Hebrew "of" into the phrase. This is acceptable, just as it is acceptable to insert "in-" in translation #8. But, what is unclear is how they interpret this "of". In Hebrew, as in English, the genitive preposition "of" often does not imply possession or ownership, but rather merely association (so it is sometimes untranslated, or is translated as "with-" or "by-") or implies location ("in-", "on-"). For instance,

Ezekiel 34:12
"As-tending-of one-being-shepherd his-flock..."

Isaiah 54:5
"...those-rejoicing and-those-doing of-righteousness..."

Isaiah 14:19
"...like-a-branch loathed, covered of-slain-ones, ones-pierced of (by)-sword, ones-descending of(in)-to stones of-pit..."

Isaiah 66:6
"Someone-sacrificing of-the-bull is like someone-killing of-a-man..."

Judges 5:6
...roads were-abandoned, and-those-who-traveled of (on)-the-paths they-took roads winding.

Judges 5:9
My-heart with-those-ruling of-Israel...

Judges 5:10
Those-riding of(on)-donkeys white,
those-sitting of(-on) upon saddles,
and-those-walking of(on)-upon the-road, consider-them!

Incidentally, this is why a genitive noun or phrase can naturally function as an adjective. They add description to something else.

To the matter at hand, from the obscuring English translation, "as with woman", it is impossible to tell whether the translators thought "lyings of woman" to refer to the lyings belonging to (performed by) a woman, or to the lyings performed by a man on a woman. Perhaps they were not sure about the Hebrew meaning, and intentionally chose such a vague English rendering. As read in English, it could refer to either.

It is worth mentioning that in other instances where "lying-with" is used, it refers to vaginally penetrative sexual intercourse. Judges 21:11-12 uses the singular form of the word, mishk'v (lying-with), as a gerund in construct case used with the word (probably genitive), "male":

• [11a] "and-all of-woman having-experience (of-)lying with-male you-kill."
• [11b] "and-all of-woman having-experience in-bed of-male you-kill."
• [12a] "...young woman virgin (bethulah) who not she-experienced male by-lying with-male..."
• [12b] "...young woman virgin (bethulah) who not she-experienced male in-bed of-male..."

Similarly, we have,

Numbers 31:17,18,35

• [17a] "and-all of-woman having-experience of-lying with-male you-kill."
• [17b] "and-all of-woman having-experience in-bed of-male you-kill."
• [18] "...of-the-girls who not they-experience by-lying with-male..."
• [35] "the-women who not they-have-experience (of-)lying with-male..."

It is interesting that these passages can also be translated as, "...all woman having experience in the bed of a male..."

We note that, in the above verses, the noun phrase ("lying-with male") is experienced, not performed. The woman is the passive. Furthermore, it is vaginal penetration that is experienced. In those times, a woman's virginity was determined by whether she had the vaginal "tokens of a virgin", that is, her hymen, intact. She was still a virgin even if she had done any other activity we consider sexual today. In keeping with this, we could recognize the noun phrase in Lev 18:22, ("lyings-with woman"), to refer to active vaginal penetrations -- acts performed by the man on the woman.

This notion that the phrase "lying-with woman" meant vaginal penetration does draw support from Talmudic commentary. It should be noted this can be shown for noun phrases, but does not necessarily hold for the verb "lie-with" in general.

What is the point of all this? The traditional interpretation of "lyings-with woman" as "as with woman" in Lev 18:22 and 20:13 seems to miss the fact that, if the literal translation chosen is "lyings-with woman" (rather than "ones-lying-with woman"), then it is speaking of sexual intercourse involving vaginal penetration. One then must ask, how can a man be forbidden from vaginal penetration with another man? Translations #8 to #12 cannot answer this question.

Translations #1 to #6 avoid the problem by recognizing that the phrase, , translated literally as either "ones-lying-with woman" or "lyings-with woman", refers to vaginal penetration by a man with a woman. They use it to describe the man who does such a thing, the heterosexual man.

Which translation should a person select? Usually, a person's prejudices come into play here, and most people with some kind of personal objection to homosexual people will choose the anti-gay translation because it suits their psyche better. After all, the people down through the ages who have held the pen and been in charge of translations and commentaries have mostly been heterosexuals. Thus, they have imposed their opinions exclusively on these verses when presenting them to us.

All translations listed above are grammatically sound and possible, but the anti-gay interpretations are a bit farther from the literal wording.

In any case, there are many permutations of meanings one can get from Lev 18:22 and 20:13 just using the literal words alone. Most of the gay-tolerant ones prohibit bisexual activity. We might ask why bisexuality would be singled out. It is easy to see that bisexual activity implies having more than one partner, promiscuity, and usually adultery that are root causes of physical diseases associated with sex. Monogamy saves a person from this, and a monogamous man, homosexual or hetero in activity, would not be in violation of the above law according to Translations #1 through #6, and would also be safe from such diseases. For that matter, a bisexual (in mind/orientation but not activity) man who remained monogamous and faithful to only one partner (male or female) would also not be in violation.

What of Lev 20:13?

The first clause of Lev 20:13 literally reads:

Lev 20:13a

"v'ish 'ashar ishkav 'eth zachar mishk'vey ishaw to'eyva lashvo..."

"And-man who lies with male lyings-with woman detestable they-did..."

"And man who lies with male lyings-with woman detestable they-did..."

or,

"And man who lies with male ones-lying-with woman detestable they-did..."

Because the words are essentially the same as in Lev 18:22, I do not need to discuss the translations at length here. In summary, the gay-tolerant ones are:

• "And man who lies with man having lyings with woman..."
• "And man who lies with man who lies with woman..."
• "And man who lies with man (of) ones who lie with woman..."
• "And man who lies with a man (of) those who lie with woman..."
• "And man, who lies with man, and having lyings with woman..."
  (both phrases referring to the man doing the lying)
• "And man, who lies with man, and who lies with woman..."
  (both phrases referring to the man doing the lying)

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Sodom and the Rape of Angelic Guests

We next move to what is probably the second most commonly quoted (actually misquoted) scriptures used against gays, the Soodom and Gomorrah story of Genesis 19.

Gen 19:3-5

"But, he (Lot) insisted that they (the angels) come with him, and they entered his house. And he prepared a meal for them, yeast less bread, and they ate. Before they went to lie down, men of the city, men of Sodom, from young to old, all of the people, to the very last one, surrounded the house. And, they called to Lot saying, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them to us so that we may know of them."

The phrase "we may know" (of them) is presumed to mean that they want to have sexual relations with the angels. Technically, the same word "know" is used many times to mean simple knowledge rather than sexual activity.

But, be that as it may, what we see here is planned rape of guests. There is nothing to support the belief that this passage says more than what it does. And anyone who claims that is an example of a condemnation of homosexuality itself is blatantly ignoring the context of the story.

Also, some sloppy theologians and politicians like to suggest that Sodom was a city of all men. This is ridiculous, as it could not have survived for as long as it did without women. It is also worth pointing out that it is not just the men of Sodom who are here confronting Lot; it is ALL of the people of the city (neither Sodom nor Gomorrah were ever said to have had only men in it). Furthermore, Gen 14:21 also speaks of "persons" in Sodom rather than just men. And, Isaiah 1:9 suggests that if a remnant of Sodom had survived, they would have been able to come back, like Israel. This implies there must have been women. The word used for "men" can refer to groups containing both men and women.

Note:

As in English, Hebrew used the word, "man", and especially its plural "men" (enaashy), to refer to people in general, not just males.

In Gen 29:22 ("And Laban gathered together all the MEN of the place, and made a feast."), "enaashy" is used to refer to all the people, men and women. It is a rule of Hebrew grammar that when a word, adjective or noun, refers to a group of things which have different genders, the word is the masculine. Accordingly, the NIV translates "enaashy" as "people".

In Josh 8:14,21,25, we read, [14] "...when the king of Ai saw it... he and all his people... knew not that there were ambushers..." [21] "...And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city... then they turned and slew the men of Ai." [25] "And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, all the MEN of Ai." The text itself bears witness to the fact that the word "enaashy", MEN, refers to all the people, both men and women. NIV translates enaashy accordingly as "people".

In Dan 7:13 we read "...one like the Son of man..." Christians should appreciate this one, since they like to think it refers to Jesus, who called himself the "Son of man". Yet, here, the word man must be understood to refer to people or mankind, not just males since Jesus was really a Son of humans, the Son of woman, but not a Son of male.

In Gen 39:11 we read "And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business, and there was none of the men of the house there within." Next, Joseph's master's wife tries to seduce Joseph when there is no one else around. Clearly, "enaashy" refers to any person, not just males.

In Lev 18:27 ("For all these abominations have the MEN of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled"), the NIV retranslates the Hebrew word, "enaash"/"MEN", as "people" here.

Num 13:32 reads "...and all the PEOPLE that we saw in it are MEN of a great height." Here, the word for "people", ngaam, is used in conjuction with enaashy/MEN, and so MEN clearly refers to all people. NIV thus translates enaashy as "people".

Deut 27:14 "...say to all the MEN of Israel with a loud voice..." NIV translates "MEN" as "people". And, indeed, it is all the people of Israel who are being addressed, all of them who are being forbidden to make idols, and all of the people (ngaam) who respond in the following verses saying "amen".

Gen 24:13 "...the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water..."

In Gen 17:23, "...every male among the men of Abraham's house...", we see that "men" clearly refers to all the people.

Several other pasages using "men" to refer to people in general are Gen 6:4, Lev 7:25, Judges 6:28, 6:30, 19:16, Jer 11:2,9,23, 17:25, 18:11, 32:32, 35:13, 36:31, 38:4, 43:9, and 44:27.

In offering his daughters to the men, Lot was attempting to avoid both the act of rape (since in Biblical times, when a father gave his daughter to a man, he was giving consent for the sexual intercourse that would follow), and to avoid an act of unkindness to strangers (because he and his daughters were not strangers). It is also well worth pointing out that after offering his virgin daughters to the gang rapists, Lot and his daughters fled Sodom only to have sex with each other. This casts new light on just how much Lot really valued the daughters' virginity to begin with.

Ezekiel reminds us that Sodom's sins were much more than "detestable things". Most of the sins he lists are those of inhospitality and lack of charity:

Ezek 16:49-50

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did detestable things before me.

And, even Jesus speaks of Sodom in the context of hospitality:

Mark 6:11

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Some would object that if these scriptures meant that multi-partner relationships, or promiscuity, was wrong, that surely some place else in the Bible would mention something upholding monogamous homosexual relationships. But, the bible is more likely to speak against the "shalt nots" than the "shalls". For that matter, the Bible does not actually dictate that one should marry only one wife, and it does not even dictate that one must marry (Gen 2:24 is not a command to marry), though it goes to elaborate detail on what should be done if one takes another's wife. Further, there was never a law against a married man sleeping with an unmarried woman, and so this was permitted. Yet, there was no mention of it, no positive rule saying it was okay. Allowance by omission... like our declaration of independence. Not making restrictions is the implied consent for remaining freedoms.

As for there being other positive references to homosexual relationships, there may indeed be.

David and Jonathan become Soul-mates

1st Samuel 18:1-4

And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. So Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. Then Jonathan and David made vows, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and took off his clothes, even his sword, and to his bow, and took off his girdle.

Saul Finds out About David's and Jonathan's Relationship

1st Samuel 20:30

Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said to him, "You son of the perverse rebellious woman, don't I know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?

David and Jonathan Kiss

1st Samuel 20:41-42

And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bent over three times: and they kissed each other, and wept one with another, and David exceedingly. And Jonathan said to David, "Go in peace, for as we have vowed in the name of L0RD, saying, "L0RD be between me and you, and between my seed and your seed forever. And he arose and departed, and Jonathan went into the city.

David Sings a love song for Jonathan

2nd Samuel 1:26

I miss you, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant have you been to me. Your love to me was wonderful, better than the love of women.

---

New Testament

The only thing the New Testament says that may possibly relate to homosexuality is found in the letters of Paul. For those who are not compelled to take Paul's words as divinely inspired, the following discussion will be irrelevant. But, for those whose religion is founded on Paul, the following will be important.

Before continuing, we might also suggest that you examine how Christianity, particularly Evangelical Christianity, fares in the whole issue of sins and abominations. You may be quite surprised.

Paul Condemns the Pagans, Turned into Orgy-mongerers

Paul says that his god became angry with people who worshipped idols, and "turned them over to wild passions". These people consequently went into a unbridled orgy with each other, and got diseases as a result. This was their punishment.

Romans 1:19-27

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it to them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and divinity, so that they are without excuse.

"Because, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Claiming themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image resembling corruptible man, and birds, and four footed beasts, and reptiles.

"Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness in lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves, who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

"Therefore, God gave them over to dishonorable passions, for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust towards others, men with men, doing that which is shameful, and receiving in their persons the fitting consequence of their error."

There is not a biblical word for "homosexual". Sexual practices are always specified by their activity and the context in which that activity takes place. So, we must take a look at what Paul is describing before we can tell what he means in modern terms.

Natural vs. Unnatural

These orgies are homosexual, but Paul's calling them "unnatural" deserves some attention. If Paul means that homosexual behavior is not found in nature, he is wrong. Though he probably did not know that homosexual behavior could be found in some animals in nature (dolphins, whales, monkeys, humans, just to name a few). On the other hand, it is known that people themselves have a sexual orientation and sexual desires. A person's personality and sexual drive is part of their nature. Paul may or may not have known this, but perhaps if you believe G0D were speaking through him (or in spite of him), this "nature" may refer to a person's sexual orientation. So, Paul (or his god) may simply mean that these people engaged in homosexual acts that were NOT part of their nature as heterosexuals.

St. Paul himself advocates unnatural sexual behavior when he recommends abstinence even among the married people in 1st Corinthians 7:29-40! Abstinence is unnatural. He further recommends refraining from marriage altogether. This is certainly abnormal.

Penalties in their Persons: Venereal Disease

We read, "...and receiving in their persons the fitting consequence of their error". The activities of these idol-worshipping pagans were orgiastic and promiscuous in nature. The only penalty involved in this whole ordeal is the fact that they got venereal diseases (in their "persons" or bodies) as a result. One does not get venereal diseases by having sex with just one partner. Thus their activity was promiscuous. And it is these wild passions that may be described as shameful or dishonorable.

Another important thing to notice is that these pagans were not initially practicing homosexual orgies, and they did not initially have sexual passions for one another. If they had already possessed the passions that they had been "given over to", there would have been no need to give them over to them, obviously. In modern terms, these people were initially heterosexual, both in activity and in passion/orientation. Paul says that his god somehow caused this to change. As such, this is not a condemnation for their sexual practices, but a case in which Paul's god uses wild sexual orgies, leading to venereal disease, to punish the pagans for worshipping idols.

Therefore, in light of the context, this passage does not speak of homosexuality in general, and certainly not monogamous homosexuality in specific.

Paul's Coined Terms

1st Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you all not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the soft, male whores, nor thieves, nor the envious, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Here, the word for "male whores" is "arseno-koitai". It is not an actual Greek word, but one that Paul has created, coined. Its two roots mean "male" (arseno) and "sex" (koitai), where such "sex" is usually of a licentious nature. The word may mean "male whoremongers" as easily as "male whores". Some bible editors show their bias against homosexuals and attempt to broadly translate this as the modern "homosexuals". The editors of the KJV, for instance, preferred to translate it as the rather long-winded "the abusers of themselves with mankind". However, it need not necessarily be so, and "male whore" is the closest fitting translation given its matching ambiguity. A "male whore" is either a male temple prostitute, who had sex with pagan worshippers as a living idol of their god, or a fornicating man who simply has promiscuous sex with men or women. Male temple prostitutes, also known as cult prostitutes, were very common in many of the cultures' religions in those days, and both male and female cult prostitutes are mentioned in many places throughout the Old Testament. In context, this is the closest thing that matches Paul's made-up words.

What of "the soft"? This is a real Greek word, "malakois", meaning literally, "soft". It is used in Matt 11:8 and Luke 7:25 to describe soft clothes, fine clothes. What it means in 1st Corinthians is difficult to say. There are several other sins listed, and not all of them are sexual. It may refer to the "ethically soft" (morally/spiritually weak or indecisive), or the fineries of those with too much wealth. Some bible editors have chosen to translate it as "the effeminate" here. And, quite oddly, the NIV has translated it as "male prostitutes", which is, rather, the meaning of "arsenokoites". This is quite a stretch considering that the word literally means "soft".

1st Timothy 1:9-10

Know this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for father-killers and mother-killers, for man-killers, for fornicators, male whores, sellers of men, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

Here, the word used for "male whores" is again "arseno-koitais", so I refer you to the above discussion. Some English translations translate this word as "Sodomites", based on the shaky assumption that the sins of Sodom (whatever they were) are the best match for this coined Greek word. The question then becomes, what was the sin of Sodom? Was it homosexuality in general? Not likely. See the discussion on Gen 19:3-5 above. Even if Sodom's sin was homosexuality in general (ignoring context for the moment), "male whores" is still the more accurate translation here in 1st Timothy anyway.

Nor do I get a link to a website that goes into detail like above showing gay is sin. All links homophobes give me and believe me since 1974 they have given me a lot of links to tell me gay is sin. However, there are a ton of links that present the facts like the small example I pasted in for you. Here is a good site, In it you can find the complete documents of all 76 times Paul's

733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.

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All modern version Bibles come from the translations of Westcott and Hort and it is paramount you understand these two men for they got the corrupt version having 50,000 to 80,000 corruptions depending on to version you have that design is to take Christ out of Jesus. So yes you do have it in English but what a price to pay come time antichrist will send the deceptions based on the conditioning Christians have by reading modern versions.

English and other languages evolve and some Hebrew/Greek words have several words for the one English word counterpart and translators by design do not bring over the specific meaning to English. Most areas are that all that significant, but many areas are very seriously important to understand what the Bible is saying. Lev verses man with man, look pretty specific but the word man in the Hebrew meaning means "practicing str8 man" now that 100% changes how you understand the verse. You though are very content with assuming your upbringing and your simple reading is how you interrupt it. Mostly who cares, however, the gay issue means when you say gay is sin you are talking about nearly 700 million gays today and perhaps 1 billion 400,000 gays in all. This means your simple reply you don't need to study to show yourself approved of God gives no hope to a massive number of people by the way that have testimony like any person that have accepted Jesus so gays that have accepted Jesus have their lifetime of testimony of their walk with Jesus. I have since Jan. 27, 19754 at 9:45pm of testimony and on top of that I have been Pentecostal since then as well.

When you tell a gay person that knows around 700 years ago a few powerful Catholic leaders wanted to find ways to get people out of powerful positions that did not have the same ideals. So, they came up with 12 verses (in 1950 2 more were added at an 1850 clergy convention in the USA) so they could point fingers and say he's gay and that is against God and so purge them from power. It took another 100 years for the Protestants to adopt that doctrine. Tell me is that gay person going to accept your simple "it's in the Bible" phrase? The Bible has many gay marriages as well tell me how can you know this unless you study what marriage are in Paul's and Moses' day? Today's marriage are based in pagan fertility gods. Our rituals and receptions are direct from pagan culture. So many pagans came to Christianity in the 12 century marriage changed into how we do it today. There is so much detail about this historic change and this is so very important when talking about the Bible. You cannot find a marriage today based on the Bible of Jesus' day. any countries custom that still has some elements of Bible days marriages are not Christian countries but simply maintained the 1000s of years of marriage similar to the Bible's. To find gay marriages in the Bible you have to know how people married in those days and you can then see several gay marriages are also recorded.

So if you are reading modern version you really are reading satan counterfeit Bibles and are conditioning yourself to be ripe for the coming deceptions that will make antichrist seem like Jesus after all. Eternity is a long time and if you play in the area of condemning people then simple reading the Bible and relying on your own concepts of things that are extremely well defined in ancient days then you miss so much of the message of God. The Bible is made to study. It is stories over lapping stories. A Bible story has several layers and relates to several things. The literal times it was written concerning the Hebrews, the future concerning the Church, your individual life and much more. That why is called the Living Word. A phrase in the Bible is not so simple as to use modern day concepts. A phrase often relates to the Hebrew customs and oral Law. To the person of Jesus' day that phrase has a wealth of meaning. Today it can have very little meaning until we study and learn what that phrase meant in Jesus' time. The Bible was written back then for a reason. It was the specific time in History where all things could be set in writing that could endure time. As languages evolved the Bible remain steadfast because of the immense access to Jesus day history and culture. Others spend the decades learning we just have to punch a few keys on the keyboard, we do not have to learn anything. What we do have to do is check the yea or nay by reviewing what you read and confirming it by cross referencing the easily available information. Once again if you are not willing to study then you should not judge others. The word sodomite is not the evolved Catholic meaning but a very specific kind of male prostitute which was in that occupation for the benefit of fertility temples and this is not a rare temple or two but it was the normal abundant form of religions of Bible days.

Sad to hear people just are so content with condemning hundreds of millions of people they have not spent a second with of their lives with. I bet you will come back and with a couple sentences say about what you have, that you don't need to study or show gay is sin that gay is just sin.

'Brian Stehle's Romans 1-26

From: gaysforjesus647 [mailto:gaysforjesus647@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:02 AM
To: 'Brian Stehle'
Subject: RE: gays for jesus?

What bout verses 18-25 and verses 28-32? Do you abandon the story so you can pick out a verse that matches your concept of gays. "committed indecent acts" Tell me why when you meet the opposite sex then date then fall in love then marry you know this is not rape, abuse, adultery, etc. You say it is str8 process that ends up married (of course 60% end up divorce but that is not an issue to you). Now if gays meet date fall in love and marry in exactly the same process you did you call it " indecent acts". You worse yet say God punishes gays wish aids. This disease is quite tractable to its roots. It is a controversy in itself, but cutting past its history and get to today's facts percentagewise more str8s have aids. Children have aids. We would then have to condemn str8 women because God is punishing them with breast cancer. We can go group by group and find related conditioned to say God is a punisher instead of one who sent his Son to die on the Cross for "YOU".

Rom 1:18-32

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (the story begins)

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (The big picture)

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (a ton of info is available)

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (who are these THEY people? We are told they knew God and this had to begin as a child and gone through to adulthood when they were not thankful, became vain, and heart darkened. Now we have 650 million gays so they all should be this way. None should be good decent folk. The fact is most are very decent and beneficial to mankind which is provable in their careers and things they do for others.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (650 million gays generally all ordinary people not boasting but generally humble and across the board behind the scenes. If they became fools then we would see massive numbers being obvious fools, but instead we see the health care field as an example that is provable should they leave it it would collapse. Employers often state gays are their best employees. These are fact not fools.)

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (This verse says "str8 adults turned from GOD to gods" so we can see did gays grow up and change from Christianity to other regions? Many gays may not go to church because of people like you condemning them. But sorry to pop your bubble most gays in Christian backgrounds are Christian and don't turn from it when they grow up. Gay Atheists or agnostics are these in for the same reasons str8 are and many are likely to come back to Christ rather than turn further away.)

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Gave who? Those that turned to other gods. Keep in mind Paul wrote this inspired of God in the 1st century. So we have 1st century facts of what these THEY people did. We have the other gods then they went too, so we can name the gods and the rituals and the temple. Like in Moses day we have hard core fact people of God went to other gods and joined in their rituals. We know for an absolute fact these rituals were fertility rituals involve sodomite "temple prostitutes" We know many of these temple prostitutes cut of "junior" and dress like women to satisfied their mainly if not all str8 male clients. When Paul walk the streets of Rome and Corinth it can be said there was a fertility temple on every street corner. We know Paul went into a temple that had over 1000 temple prostitutes and that temple also had that statue to the unknown god Paul used in a later book. I went to Rome and did over 20 TV programs one was at the temple of the famous Cybele mother of the gods. I will in May of this year go to Corinth to do program at that ruin of the very temple that Paul went in that had the 1000 temple prostitutes. God gave these "THEY" people over to do there things and that is joining these fertility temple and participating in the ritual orgies. We got so much info about these prostitutes and orgies it is dumb founding how people like you can't see the issue was about Christians going to ritual orgies in these fertility temples. I went to Pompeii they have come to discover it was really sex sex sex and more sex. How you can confuse this with a gay couple in love should tell you that satan got blinders on you so you can't see. Only way people like you can see is when some crisis in your life forces you to take another look at life and you have life changing experience. It is too bad you just can't study and learn, but you need a crisis to show you. A crisis is coming and you won't like it, this crisis will result in huge numbers turning their backs on Jesus. Take your blinders off so the coming deception won't make that man over there seem like Jesus after all.)

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

(again you call the think you do with the opposite sex LOVE, but if gays do it you call it vile affection.

5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591. 5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

In Paul's day "nature and natural" was different, today we use a scientific notion. Shortened natural and natural is seed and instinct. This would mean if you wanted the verse to condemn gays that all gays would have first loved str8 sex and that is the sex they had up to when God made them gay in verse 24-25. Now FACTs should tell you that if you went to an orgy it would be very much vile. Without getting gory in details about real orgies there just is no love involved. There is no hint to a loving caring long term relationship between any of the participants. What more it is in worship to fertility gods. Paul really had a pet peeve concerning how Christians could go to these orgies. These details were given so it should be easy for you to recognize it is not about gays but about turning from GOD to gods. You say probably aids is the punishment here. FACT is gays don't go downhill like drug addiction or alcoholism or murderers or any sort of the like things that has a common result in destroying lives and take severe measure to change around. Gays instead live stable lives and generally have the things to live, house car for medical vacations otherwise nothing to indicate living as a gay person shows no sign of going downhill and destroying lives. People like you want to destroy gays lives. But in spite of people like you gays fair quite well in your persecutions. Gay Christians get prayers answered, they get blessings, they have the same hardships and blessing as any Christian. But in my 36 years as a gay Christian I see growth in gay Christian groups I see God working to prepare gays for an endtime ministry to restore people like you when you fall which there is a really good chance his will happen.)

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (again 650 million gays worldwide it should be simple to see a pattern of reprobate minds and doing things which God details in the next few verses.)

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: (650 million gays if you look at the statistics and go to these gays and follow their lives you will see the opposite o f these things listed in these verse. They are pillars in their families in crisis, again they are employers best employees, they are great leaders, history records many. The list of good deeds would take forever. The only things you see they relates to misery is those gays that are being heavily persecuted and they have no or seek no means to seek truth, they accept their persecutors interpretation. Their families persecute them in the name your concept of gays thinking it is sin. Ex-gay leaders most comes from strict Catholic homes or Christian parents who constantly condemn them for being gay. These are sent to therapists and pastors that condemn gays. So churches love to put them on a pedestal when they lead a ex-gay group, but try to forget them if they fail to become str8. These are very few in numbers compared to the 650 million gays most go unheard as they live everyday ordinary lives. I know about them because I am a weekly TV preacher meaning I do my homework and know the facts.

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

(KJV) (gays do not get pleasure doing evil and they do not purposely live a way that they know will get them hell. Gay generally across the board live the best they can and the results are noticed like I said "best workers and bosses" They date and marry just like you. they party just like you. The mature just like you. They live just like you.

If you commit murder yes you are worthy of death, if you rape it should not go well with you. but if you love your wife have a means to live and support your life, a few good times, help a few, keeping your faith in God, then you are not in this verse. I have had thousands of miracles and answered prayers, 3 major physical instant healings. Uncountable blessing hundred of pastors prophesying over me good things of God. I been with my lover for 21 years. I own my house and cars outright. I am a manager in a large company with the keys and codes and the responsibly up to giving away everything in the store if I saw fit to it, of course that isn't a thing that ever happens it is just a policy for manager so to manage with confidence to make the right decisions. Last few years I have begun traveling around the world to shoot my TV programs while on vacations. The last ten years I have not had to spend any of my paycheck so retirement is promising in spite of the economy. My ministry is at the brink of growth like never before. Jesus talks with me, gives me visions and much more. I am gay, I am Pentecostal. It is you that needs to explain how you get gays into Romans 1:18-32. But even after I sent you detailed professional works into these verses you still come back with it is so simple. It is simple to you because you hate gays so you can't see the difference between love and rape. You can't see the difference between good works and evil works. For you gay is sin and nothing ever will change your mind. This is why it is most likely that if your love for Jesus is sincere you will come by way of truth through a crisis. Yet the Bible says people will say to this mountain fall on me rather than change their hatreds into love. You won't explain because you love your hatred. All you can say is " this is as simple as it gets.if you deny this then you deny the bible." You can't even explain the Bible. But I bet when you go to church your ears listen intently to your pastor explain the Bible using all means he can to show you what a word phrase of verse means back in the day it was written. The problem is put the word "gay" into the topic all reason goes out the window. Suddenly who cares about fact when you have your hatred to interrupt for you.

From: Brian Stehle [mailto:b_rye@rocketmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:48 PM
To: gaysforjesus647
Subject: Re: gays for jesus?

this is as simple as it gets.if you deny this then you deny the bible.Romans 1:27

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men(homosexuality) and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion(probably aids)

Hello.. A few questions and comments for you..

Between You and Jason Johnson

Jason Johnson January 30 at 9:46pm Report

Good day Sir. I read a post you submitted and wanted to ask a few questions. This is not an attack on you or your beliefs so please prayerfully consider my questions and comments.

gays4jesus: 800,000 in 3 years of counting contacts with homophobes direct or indirect with my ministry (now 23 year after stopped counting) it is always an attack because never any attempt from the homophobe to give facts on Bible words or history or other/any hard core tangible proof that what they state. They maintain an assumed gay is sin stand period.
As a person who has struggled with homosexuality for years and a current youth pastor, I am always interested in having conversations, not debates or arguments, with those who challenge or disagree with the concept of homosexuality as sin.

gays4jesus: Your first sentence implies gay is an issue that can be talked about with little or no emotions as though you are talking about the weather. However, gay is an extreme emotional concern and so cannot be talked as simple my opinion or yours. The gay issues are set in concrete and the Bible a done deal in that it is not something you can change be evolution of words or customs. Truth sets people free not lies. Being gay is not a concept anyway it is who one is as is being str8. Being str8 or gay is something you have to deal with not a vague la la land fantasy someone is living out.

The word "struggled" is also a homophobic invention evolving a word to fit a false doctrine that was invented 700 years ago. The actual act you say is "struggled with" is you hearing the hatred of the Church in general against who you are. The word struggle here used by people trying to be str8 actually means giving into the false doctrine against gays and rejecting truth from actual Hebrew/Greek ancient meaning and history and real life.
"These verses do not talk about gays and most are from a 700 year old false doctrine invented to create scandal to purge leaders from power." This quote is at the end of your post from December 24, 2009. I was curious if any evidence or documentation is available to support this.

gays4jesus: There are plenty enough documents showing the time period a few powerful Catholic leaders invented this false doctrine. Here is a clip from "The Student Reference Library":

Religion has been of central importance in shaping this climate. Until the thirteenth century, the Christian tradition was ambiguous in its attitude toward homosexuality. But with the recodification of canon law under the influence of Thomas Aquinas, new attitudes set in. Homosexual behavior was thereafter excoriated as a heinous sin. The English carried these beliefs to North America, and the power of religion in early America guaranteed that such beliefs would shape colonial attitudes.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/index.html Is also a great resource showing the documentation of facts concerning the verses and Christian history.

Also, you commented on Romans 1:18-32 saying that God changed them and the result was visible evil. Did God change them or merely allow them to pursue the evil they were already engaged in? And since it is labeled as evil, wouldn't that qualify the act as sin?

gays4jesus: "THE ACT" is the question here. and "THE ACT" is not gays having sex. "THE ACT" is str8 adults turned from GOD to gods. The ACT of GOD was/is 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Asking me what God did can't be the point as the verse says God gave them over. This is much more than a simple I like it so I am going to do it thing. God harden Pharaoh's heart Pharaoh did not simply change his mind on his own. Hebrew men and even women did in fact go to fertility temples and did in fact participate in ritual orgies to fertility gods/goddesses. gay, str8, sin, these 3 words are not compatible. Human, sin, these 2 words are completely compatible. Yes going after other gods is evil.

One further note: sex is not the issue of purity issues. Sex is a escape goat for ministers to use to try to get people to think they are sinful. Generally sex is part of human social life. People want friends and love. This usually results in 2 people living together generally called a marriage. Friends is the social network we want as an extension to be with others. Sin messages should be more directed at the truly evil. We all know we all have sinned, but the messages given is like sex is about the only thing that matters to God in what is evil about people. Bush is evil, Obama is evil Politian mostly are evil. FACTS prove most leaders in the world are working directly for a one world government we call antichrist's kingdom. Joining freemasons is evil, reading modern version Bibles is evil. Forms of lying is evil. All lies are not serious, God told many to lie (a way to win wars, lie to your enemies to set a trap). Hate is evil, hate does not search for truth, love searches for truth.
I believe that homosexuality is not a salvific issue.

gays4jesus: Don't know "salvific" salvation issues maybe?

However, I am not fully convinced that it is a sinless act.

gays4jesus: you state: "As a person who has struggled with homosexuality for years and a current youth pastor" Seems like you had lots of time to learn gay is not sin. Only 14 verses to deal with and maybe a couple more vague lesbian ones. As a youth pastor you should have as your highest goal not to teach false doctrine to the young.

Even if we were to admit that it is a sin,

gays4jesus: not accusing of being a homophobe but homophobes loves what if games. "What if all were gay" Well 90% are str8 and it is an absolute not going to be different for a what if game. Gay is not sin so a "even if game" sends you off in the wrong direction and truth is a longer journey that if you went to the word sodomite in 7 of the 14 verses and found it meant "male temple prostitutes" not gays.

it does not stand apart from any other sin whether the hate breeders of society believe it does or not.

gays4jesus: gay is not sin so cannot be in a sin list and cannot be able to stand with or stand apart from other sins.

(I am not meaning those who believe it is sin, but those who commit violence and cast shame on homosexuals with the purposeful intent of causing undue physical or mental/emotional harm.

gays4jesus: Believing gay is sin is an extreme form of violence. It not only kills (murders) is bans gays from Heaven. It give no hope in God. It rips apart Church fellowship and families and much more. Because we see no blood does not make it less violent.

To feel shame is not the result of such an act if indeed the person is sinning for the Holy Spirit tells us when our morals are off center just as a guard rail or vibration strip on either side of a highway indicates that we are off the intended path. To continue to live in shame, however, is to deny the freedom Christ has given..Romans 8:1)

gays4jesus: This shame you speak of is forced on gays not all gays do their homework and often they believe the hatred from their pastor's mouth. Being gay does not mean they know the truth. The Church as a normal process for the last 2000 years (and the people of God back to Adam) has this in common "to hate others" by God's Grace life can be lived without having to be in the middle of that hatred all the time. But stories abound of those who spent their lives in the middle of Church hatred. To associate "to continue" you said shame but meant sin is also a common homophobic doctrine against gays. Generally this "to continue in" phase is greatly abused. Bush continues to live in sin and is un-repented. Pastors live in sin often and teach lies abundantly again by the Grace of God mostly enough of the good news is preached to enable generally decent Christian life. We are talking extremes and extremes though serious are just part of what will soon be washed away in the 1260 days of shaking the Church that is coming.
In my studies of human development, I am reading more and more that there is no link between the sexual orientation of the parents and the rate of these kids being either heterosexual or homosexual. The rate of kids being homosexual is the same for homosexual parents as it is for heterosexual parents. This leads me to wonder how much genetics play a part,

gays4jesus: The "RIB" means "CELL from that RIB" in the original Hebrew. There are two Bible words for rib and they mean differently. One if use in Adam would be the BONE, the other would mean genes DNA Cell which means when God made woman he sort of cloned Adam. But not really because probably the best our science can do is clone a human, God would put a soul in that clone because the clone would breathe and that is when God puts the soul in. But God did differently he reprogrammed the DNA "not adding anything" so that there would be a diversity, in Eve's case being a woman. The gay genetics ends up being a solid 10% and many other traits also has % numbers. Biologics requires a well rounded knowledge because of the loop wholes in theories.

but I am also curious what the statistics are regarding childhood same sex molestation and homosexuality.

gays4jesus: it is more important to note 97% of molestation is by str8s and 3% by gays. If things were according to hoil it should be a 90/10 ratio. Molestation as with most sexual immorality is and always has been "str8s are the kings and queens of sexual immorality"

Nearly all gays are not molested. I personally have done uncountable interviews with gays (10s of 1000s at least) it is so very rare in reality that molestation is involved. Most knew they were gay and even active by puberty. Molestation is a homophobic lie. This is a human issue not an orientation issue. To point out this as a resource to add to the list to make gays seem more sinful is a lie.

One MCC pastor I spoke with believed that there was no relation between the two. His reasoning was that he was molested by a male as was his brother, but only he was gay and not his brother. His answer was given with anger in his voice. The same situation is true with my brother and I. I accepted homosexuality as part of who I am while my brother continues to hate men and has been in many fights with them and admitted to me that he feels that way due to the molestation that occurred. So, one victim acting out their homosexual attractions and the other not doing so does not seem like an adequate defense that sexual abuse does not play a part in the orientation process.

gays4jesus: Again, using case example of molestation is like saying a disease that effect 1 millionth population should have a full half of a hospital devoted to that disease in all hospitals. But molestation is so popular in homophobia it will be treated as a major factor. Your brother hates men mainly because of 700 years of Church conditioning. St. Augustine who own a concubine and sold her to marry a wealthy aristocrat began making sex sin. This became a major part of Christianity ever since. (above is more complex than my short explanation here). Women are raped with high % rates yet though some hate men most marry men in spite of being raped by one.
Well, that is a lot to respond to for one message. Whether or not we agree totally, or at all, is not a reason for us not to demonstrate the love of Christ for one another and to hold each other up in prayer. My prayers are for you, not against you. I pray only for the peace of Christ to overwhelm you and over flow into the lives of those you love and influence.

gays4jesus: In your message here to me you really never gave your own thoughts on really anything. I can't tell if you are pro or con gays is sin or not. Paramount no hint to any specific verse that is used to condemn gays or positive verse that are positive towards gays. Though you listed Rom. 18-32 reference. I answered more based on making the point "gay is not sin"

Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you and hope we can learn from one another and grow in our faith as a result.

gays4jesus: Yes, next time be more specific on your questions as I like to get to the nity gridy. The truth sets you free lies keeps you in bondage. You can tell by the message. Homophobes do give truth but heaps weights on the innocent ones. Seek to lift those weights by representing truth with research and study both sides. Bible words and History is not changeable and so wishing and guessing is not an option to truth. If gay were sin then presenting documents on "sodomite" proving it is not "male temple prostitutes" is paramount to one showing a gay person the Bible condemns gays. If you can only find sodomite is a male temple prostitute you have to eliminate from the 14 verses leaving now with 7 verses to prove. I love truth and so Christian say this also, so truth should be out mutual goal.
In Christ,
Jason

Reply:

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Early 1940s POPE

In the early 1940s, the I.G. Farben Chemical Company employed a Polish salesman who sold cyanide to the Nazis for use in Auschwitz. The same salesman also worked as a chemist in the manufacture of the poison gas. This same cyanide gas along with Zyklon B and malathion was used to exterminate millions of Jews and other groups. Their bodies were then burned to ashes in the ovens. After the war the salesman, fearing for his llfe, joined the Catholic Church and was ordained a priest in 1946. One of his closest friends was Dr. Wolf Szmuness, the mastermind behind the November/78 to October/79 and March/80 to October/81 experimental hepatitis B vaccine trials conducted by the Center for Disease Control in New York, San Francisco and four other American cities that loosed the plague of AIDS upon the American people. The salesman was ordained Poland's youngest bishop in 1958. After a 30-day reign his predecessor was assassinated and our ex-cyanide gas salesman assumed the papacy as Pope John Paul II. 1990 is the right time with the right leaders: ex-chief of the KGB Mikhail Gorbachev, ex-chief of the CIA George Bush, ex-Nazi cyanide gas salesman Pope John Paul II, all bound by an unholy alliance to ring in the New World Order.

Here is just one link out of many that detail this info:
http://haveyougotsomesense.blogspot.com/2007/06/some-change-for-catholicismw.html

Back in the early 1940's, a German conglomerate named Interessen-Gemeinschaft Farbenindustrie AG (or I.G. Farben for short) employed a Polish man named Karol Jozef Wojtyla as a salesman for their company. I.G. Farben was one of the early companies to manufacture Zyklon B (the chemical used in the gas chambers during the Holocaust by the Nazis), and Mr. Wojtyla became the companies middle-man to the Germans; being the first to sell the chemical to the NSDAP.
When word got around that the chemical was used for the murder of millions of people throughout Europe, Wojtyla became horribly depressed at his previous actions, moreover, became fearful for his life knowing that people throughout the continent had begun seeking revenge on all of those involved with the Nazis. To hide from death, the young Polish chemical salesman joined a Catholic monastery where he became a priest in 1946, and by 1958 was Poland's youngest ordained bishop. Then, just 20 years later in 1978, our former cyanide gas salesman was chosen into Papacy and presumed his position under the name Pope John Paul II.

Most Secret Societies

Most modern secret societies and especially those that practice degrees of initiation, and that is the key, are really one society with one purpose. You may call them whatever you wish--the Order of the Quest, the JASON Society, the Roshaniya, the Qabbalah, the Knights Templar, the Knights of Malta, the Knights of Columbus, the Jesuits, the Masons, the Ancient and Mystical Order of Rosae Crucis, the Illuminati, the Nazi Party, the Communist Party, the Executive Members of the Council on Foreign Relations, The Group, the Brotherhood of the Dragon, the Rosicrucians, the Royal Institute of International Affairs, the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderberg Group, the Open Friendly Secret Society (the Vatican), the Russell Trust, the Skull & Bones, the Scroll & Key, the Order--they are all the same and all work toward the same ultimate goal, a New World Order.

Maitreaya

Many of them, however, disagree on exactly who will rule this New World Order, and that is what causes them to sometimes pull in opposite directions while nevertheless proceeding toward the same goal. The Vatican, for instance, wants the Pope to head the world coalition. Some want Lord Maitreya to head the New World Order. Lord Maitreya is the front runner, I believe, since witnesses say he was present on the ship at Malta with Bush, Gorbachev, and the ten regional heads of the New World Order. "Approximately 200 dignitaries from around the world attended a major conference initiated by Maitreya in London on April 21 and 22,1990. Representatives of governments (including the USA), members of royal families, religious leaders and journalists, all of whom had met with Maitreya previously, attended the conference." Quote from "Prophecy Watch" column of Whole Wheat No. 8, Minneapolis.

GOD “HER” or “HIM”

  Comment left in a facebook page called : Pentecostals can be Gay too! based on their logo “Just ask her”

Kearro Ovaenosis Although I like the idea of this page I do NOT like the idea that we have to make God a man or a woman, God is God and God is above that!

December 29, 2009 at 5:23pm · Comment · Like · Report

3 people like this.

John Gaysforjesus

Probably need to get more info concerning their logo before assuming why the "HER" is in it. Being AOG and my 37 year walk I am won't let "HER" be as much as an issue as John 3:16 is as to what it means to be Christian. The "HER" thing has a background and MCC made inclusive language important to deal with serious issues. For me I am quite happy ...See More

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