A simple follow up to June’s comment: “It really bothers me that everyone
refers to Brant as being gay. I too was in the ministry and knew him to be the real mccoy.Wheather he USE to be gay is another matter.”
Another commenter below writes about a more detailed firsthand knowledge about Brant.
From: Mom [mailto:noreply-comment@blogger.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:07 PM
To: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com
Subject: [Stables Ministry Home of Gay For Jesus TV] New comment on Brant Baker Shekinah Fellowship "Re-Visited".
Mom has left a new comment on your post "Brant Baker Shekinah Fellowship "Re-Visited"":
Let me first say that I believe homosexuality is natural and nothing to be ashamed of. It occurs in nature and in every country on Earth. This information is provided not to gossip but to hope for understanding and love in the true spirit of Jesus.
Brant was actively homosexual during his ministry. A member of my extended family had a sexual relationship and was blackmailing him for a period of time. I find it sad that he couldn't be himself.
Posted by Mom to Stables Ministry Home of Gay For Jesus TV at August 20, 2009 11:07 PM
Friday, August 21, 2009
Thursday, August 20, 2009
Baker, Once gay always gay, period
It really bothers me that everyone
refers to Brant as being gay. I too was in the ministry and knew him to be the real mccoy.Wheather he USE to be gay is another matter.
It doesn't really bother me because it is a all too common feature of a homophobe type person to assume majic or something instead of facts. Here June WAS, past tense, in the ministry. This is also common and it does not mean you really know anyone. The gay person is not going to reviel every thing about their gayness to a world that hates gays in a time that it was nearly unheard of for any positive support. The 70s brought the ex-gay movement and many gays living in the consistant condemnation by their str8 brothers and sisters often hid in the closet and often stated they were delievered. This is what is good about the truth that sets people free. Decades will go by and there are those that steadfastly persue those claiming deliverance of being gay. Brant lived in a world and was in the center of Christian media leadership's control. Generally Paul Crouch controled Christian viewing in a large part in many ways. When he discovered Brant had aids he erased Brant from the Christian record. Brant did actually persue a degree of ex-gay ministry and attempted to live as such.
We have more record about Brant's last days and they were he grew less interested in what the Christian communitity thought about him and he began living a more relax and Brant oriented life style and was much the happier for it.
Now we go into the Facts about ex-gay ministries as they prove upfront you don't change and be str8 and can't live in a consistant celebate style. Ex-gay positive groups follow ex-gay a short time before they tire of it and or run out of money. Others maintain a vigil for decades finding there is no such thing as an ex-gay. There are significant detail on this I will not go into here, I just wanted to respond to June's comment "Brant may use to have been gay" If he were gay or bisexual (evidense show he was gay and not bisexual) then he would remain this way though gays can be good at closeted behavior. In the early 80s was not the time that publicly famous people would be flaunting their gayness. Once you do your homework then you can speak up and say someone used to be gay, however doing your homework will result in the truth that sets you free, you do not "used to be gay" thing at all.
Paul, was a murderer and killed christians. That is until he met JESUS. So why is every one trying to give a name to someone that can't defend themselves. What sins have you committed before you met JESUS. I have my dark secrets how about you? Or can't you find anything else to gossip about ?
Here it is appearing June assume gay is sin and is saying Brant is dead and can't come back. Comparing murder, is a common trait of homophobes, to gays is really sub human. Murder is sin and there is no way around this and no matter how to research this it is sin. Gay is not sin and the more you search the more you find proof after proof it is not sin and scarier still for the homophobe is they will discover that gays are quite the servants of God and huge numbers are indeed Christians and more still is secret and may never be told the majority of Christians concerning some aspects about God and Gays and why.
Yes we know everyone has dark secrets and sometimes it is not sin, but other times yes indeed pretty sexually immoral sins are in your dark secrets list. But Being gay is not a dark secret it is a bright secret having to be kept because even close loves will turn agains them.
Disgusting is the person that plays games about gays can change and be str8. It shows they really do love their hatred agains huge numbers of innocent people, but hey theis is a fairly common virtue Christians have. It does n ot take long to see how we quickly condemn and disown those we think are astry.
refers to Brant as being gay. I too was in the ministry and knew him to be the real mccoy.Wheather he USE to be gay is another matter.
It doesn't really bother me because it is a all too common feature of a homophobe type person to assume majic or something instead of facts. Here June WAS, past tense, in the ministry. This is also common and it does not mean you really know anyone. The gay person is not going to reviel every thing about their gayness to a world that hates gays in a time that it was nearly unheard of for any positive support. The 70s brought the ex-gay movement and many gays living in the consistant condemnation by their str8 brothers and sisters often hid in the closet and often stated they were delievered. This is what is good about the truth that sets people free. Decades will go by and there are those that steadfastly persue those claiming deliverance of being gay. Brant lived in a world and was in the center of Christian media leadership's control. Generally Paul Crouch controled Christian viewing in a large part in many ways. When he discovered Brant had aids he erased Brant from the Christian record. Brant did actually persue a degree of ex-gay ministry and attempted to live as such.
We have more record about Brant's last days and they were he grew less interested in what the Christian communitity thought about him and he began living a more relax and Brant oriented life style and was much the happier for it.
Now we go into the Facts about ex-gay ministries as they prove upfront you don't change and be str8 and can't live in a consistant celebate style. Ex-gay positive groups follow ex-gay a short time before they tire of it and or run out of money. Others maintain a vigil for decades finding there is no such thing as an ex-gay. There are significant detail on this I will not go into here, I just wanted to respond to June's comment "Brant may use to have been gay" If he were gay or bisexual (evidense show he was gay and not bisexual) then he would remain this way though gays can be good at closeted behavior. In the early 80s was not the time that publicly famous people would be flaunting their gayness. Once you do your homework then you can speak up and say someone used to be gay, however doing your homework will result in the truth that sets you free, you do not "used to be gay" thing at all.
Paul, was a murderer and killed christians. That is until he met JESUS. So why is every one trying to give a name to someone that can't defend themselves. What sins have you committed before you met JESUS. I have my dark secrets how about you? Or can't you find anything else to gossip about ?
Here it is appearing June assume gay is sin and is saying Brant is dead and can't come back. Comparing murder, is a common trait of homophobes, to gays is really sub human. Murder is sin and there is no way around this and no matter how to research this it is sin. Gay is not sin and the more you search the more you find proof after proof it is not sin and scarier still for the homophobe is they will discover that gays are quite the servants of God and huge numbers are indeed Christians and more still is secret and may never be told the majority of Christians concerning some aspects about God and Gays and why.
Yes we know everyone has dark secrets and sometimes it is not sin, but other times yes indeed pretty sexually immoral sins are in your dark secrets list. But Being gay is not a dark secret it is a bright secret having to be kept because even close loves will turn agains them.
Disgusting is the person that plays games about gays can change and be str8. It shows they really do love their hatred agains huge numbers of innocent people, but hey theis is a fairly common virtue Christians have. It does n ot take long to see how we quickly condemn and disown those we think are astry.
Saturday, August 15, 2009
Pakistan Christians
From: Evangelist Fahim [mailto:jfpg.pakistan@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:10 PM
To: gfjGmail
Subject: Re: Request In Christ
Dear In Christ,
I visited your site and i really like your serving that you are doing and Lord has blessed me to work with you and learn many good things from you and serve in more batter way.
Did you see anything of interest on my site? What sort of topics or what specifics do you want to chat about? Please don’t be so vague. “learn many things” “serve in a better way” really is very general and not to personal so please begin talking about real matters in detail as to what it is you are looking for and want to do and what specific things you want to learn and specifically what is a better way meaning to you?
Dear Brother it will be a great hounor for me to work with you.
I am a lowly servant of the Lord the term “a great honor” implies I am some sort of importance? Whether this is true or not it inhibits real correspondence because it is does not address actions of service to the Lord or specifically ministering to people the Gospel of Christ. I don’t like much (no offense” these opening statements. I really like talking about personal and real life matters. Like I have no idea you really know what gay means and it could be once you know you will reverse your attitude. Or you may be gay yourself and really want to learn about the Bible concerning God’s love for gays and how he will use them in these Last Days. “work with you”? We are many 1000s of miles away so what work we may do is online work. This can have many souls saved and miracles a daily occurrence. It can break down barriers cause by other religions and governments. Online works as it were can move mountains. None of this can happen with vague chat and general statement about statements that make you sound religious. Muslim do not have a personal relationship with Jesus and they will not talk about their personal lives with Allah this already is an inroad to ministry to witness the personal daily walk we have as Christians because we can tell them we did this or that with Jesus and Jesus gave me a bowl of a very specific ice Cream flavor that is not easy to come by. You see living with Jesus we can tell other about what he does with us and the answered prayers we receive while a Muslim must tell you the Bible is wrong and their Islam teachers say this about Christians and that the Koran says this. We love the Bible, but we can set it down and not have one anywhere close to us and we still have Jesus inside and we can talk days on end about our personal relationship with him and no one can say it is not so because it is you witnessing you life walking with Jesus. Jesus is inside us whether we have Bible in hand or not. Yes reading and talking about the Bible is such a blessing, but my point is we are people and people live. Email or chatting in our faith in Jesus Christ is much more that repeated statements of general detailess phases. Your name implies you are an evangelist well that means you preach a get saved message this mean you went somewhere said something and someone accepted Jesus. So expectations are WOW your feet took you to someone and they were LOST and NOW they are SAVED. What did you do? That must have been exciting. Sharing you experiences in the “working togetherness” you say you want. Working means your saw my website and you participate in writing a message or suggesting improvements based in what you know about website design or a suggest possible link to address a topic on your heart. Who knows, but “work with you” phrase means “ACTION TAKING” It means doing not just saying sweet words that sound religious and faithful. I am on TV because I believe God gave me a message and I do not care if other Christian don’t like what I say I still know what God wants me to say and do.
I don’t know what you can do, maybe you can sing and can upload your songs, maybe you can write messages, maybe you have credit card and don’t mind giving just one dollar and so you state “i really like your serving that you are doing and Lord” you wrote above so hey click on the donate button on my site and use your credit card and give one dollar. Do you know 1 dollar can mean more than 50,000 dollars? What a blessing getting an email from that donate site saying $1 was added to you account. Point is do you really want to learn a better way and to “work with me”? Then correspond with action words and turn your text into a real human. Do you have a website I can view, do you have a picture. What food do you like, do you date, how old are you, when did you accept Jesus. Lots of starting points. Fellowship together the Bible tells us to do especially as we see the end times coming and Jesus soon return. Hey I am John and you are Fahim, maybe you are not called by your friends Fahim I sure don’t know. This is fellowship, Fellowshipping real people not robots come together not to just worship and praise the Lord but also share each other’s daily lives.
As i am serving here in Aif wala bz it is a small town and far from the big cities and i have burrning of heart to learn more and serve batter.GBu
Your burning desire to serve the Lord includes Jesus’ love of “all the world” “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son”. Jesus did not just pay the price for our sins he came to “SUP” with us meaning to permanently live with us and in us and be your best friend. Serving the Lord is to also deal with whom he Loved and who he loved is human, meaning online treat those you contact as a real person that was born and has all the years of their life that has past by some happy some sad, but a life to talk about. My bathroom was eaten by “ants” I just finished rebuilding it. They destroyed the whole corner of my house. It took me 45 days to fix and rebuild. It looks fabulous. I needed to rent a car while mine was in the shop, The car rental was 5 minute drive from my house. My lover and I had been thinking about buying a PT Cruiser Chevy over the last year, but had not up that point. While driving to the car rental, I asked God to make sure a PT Cruise was available to rent. Well 4 minutes later we arrive and no PT, (so what no big issue) we filled out the paper and would get any car there. As we were finishing guess what drove into the car rental lot? Yes, a PT Cruiser and within another 5 minutes we were driving it home. Dumb prayer, but hey God answered it quickly. (we discovered we did not like that car so off the list of what new car to buy).
Again, these are real life, makes us human.
Concerning learning more about God, about ministering, about Jesus returning about how to walk with Jesus and more is also very specific and so being vague is unhelpful. Being online and reading email is time consuming so reading vague short general statements means you have to wait to hear back from a another reply you have to make. Time is short and valuable and the world is ripe and ready for the harvest. Maybe if I know what your heart is then I can tell you something that you may do and that could result in many physically healed in your next meeting you go to or have. If you tell me something that you are doing maybe I could apply it and I will see something happen where I am. This is not 20 years ago or a century ago or even 5 years ago. It is today, who know what Dec 12, 2012 AD will bring? We are very near the time that world population will drop to 1 billion in a very short time maybe as little as 42 months. A fact Jesus set a maximum time of around 2068 AD based on Bible saying those born when Israel became a name someone would be left alive when he returns. I rather doubt that he would come back at that late hour, but the world is today in a state that at any day we can be tossed in world war 3. This can happen in just minutes from now or several years. It does not appear any hint of these issues being resolved. God does have a plan to send forth many unknown people that will result in a great out pouring. Those denomination and groups that have been around for a long time will not be a partaker in the outpouring coming soon. And even as bad as some churches has been they will reap a massive inflow of new converts due to this huge outpouring. You can be and maybe already chosen to be in this new outpouring.
Your brother in christ,
Evangelist Fahim John
John
NO MATTER WHERE OR WHO YOU ARE WE ARE ON THE SAME TEAM
From: Dildar Pervez [mailto:slm_pakistan@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 8:16 AM
To: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com
Subject: Opportunity for you broadcast your programs in Pakistan on our cable TV FTN
My weekly TV programs are aired every week : Sundays at 7 am and Wednesdays at 12:30 am “Live Streaming” on scantv.org Seattle, Washington USA time (Pacific Standard Time). You are welcome to copy them and air them on your cable free of charge to you and no charge to me for Pakistan cable airing. If you want the high quality disk version they would come four 28 minute programs on a DVD in mpeg2 format. I have many programs on my website, but they are in a very poor quality real video 4 Mb size files at http://gays4jesus.com also in much better quality around eight minute clips on http://youtube/gays4jesus. If you want specific topic messages on any subject I would be happy to work that out. My Blog: http://gays4jesus.blogspot.com/
Conditions are simple: NO MONEY out of my pocket and “Self addressed paid postage” for DVD disks if you want me to mail you any disks.
I love the Lord. My programs have been seen in every country by at least one person. I have been on air since 1985. I have not had to pay a single dollar and don’t intend to start now. If your motives are good and you really want my programs and are not just trying to drum up funds I would be happy to chat or email correspondence and discuss anything and see if we could give each other what God is showing us. If your motive is just a mass emailing anyone that has anything Christian in their online names and sites then I am not interested in correspondence as this is nothing to do with real and personal love of God and real honoring of the appearance on your message in your email subject title. Here in my city we have a station that is FREE to air programs from ordinary people and I could very easily add a clip from you into my scheduled time on TV. I would not hesitate to do this not asking for a penny (it would have to be limited to a short clip and not a regular message slot. I also and quite happy to add some sort of regular 5 second or so plug for your ministry if your ministry is really as claimed. I accept support and prayer for my ministry as well and my website has a link to support me.
So many ministries contact me in a begging fashion assuming because I am a TV preach I ought to give them money. That just can’t happen so I hope you understand and that you are not motivated by expectations of receiving financial support from my ministry. On the other hand I expects miracles everywhere my message is heard and know if motives focus on Jesus and not the DOLLAR then Jesus can move freely and BLESS as he will.
In Christ Jesus
John
Thursday, August 13, 2009
Response to Evangelist Fahim
From: [mailto:jfpg.pakistan@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 12:21 PM
To: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com
Cc: stablesministries@gays4jesus.com
Subject: Request In Christ
My response is in BOLD Italics
I am serving as a Evangelist here in Arifwala city and surrounding village areas from last 5 years.
Good to hear.
From last 2 years we are running an awesome project called Bible village reader. Under this project we are training young Christian boys and girls as future leaders of Christian community.
Hopefully you know the difference between training and conditioning. So many think witnessing and teaching are the same. Teaching means you must know the subject, witnessing you simply are telling you experiences with Jesus. Often teaching really is keep traditions and customs ongoing and not real Bible and History.
We are training them how to read URDU Bible Clear and laud to their families and communityes.
Don’t know URDU Bible, but unless it is from the KING JAMES Bible (which is from the RECEIVED TEXT of the 2nd century’s copies of the originals) then any modern version Bible in founded in Westcott and Hort’s corrupt translation of the 1880s.
Till now we have 15 young students those are under training.
Great
We are printing Bible tracts and distributing them to the lost people and distributing Free Urdu Bibles to the deserving people those have none.
Every human is deserving (actually none deserve, it is by grace we are saved).
You will be surprised to know that here in our areas even believers don’t have bible copies at their homes to study; they have to wait till Sunday to hear the word of God.
Not surprised, most of Christianity up to recent times did not have Bibles of their own. Now there are many many modern English versions that are satan counterfeits (Westcott and Hort). But great you are getting Bibles into many people’s hands.
So our Church tries our best to bless these deserving people with the Bible copies.
Sorry, but “deserving people” is not Bible, all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. So I just need to point out that the worst of sinners is your word “deserving” would apply to them as much as it applies to those you have given Bible to already.
We are trying to reach out as many souls we can with the word of God.
Blessed are the feet that bring the Gospel.
Please always remember us in your prayers. We will appreciate your Love and prayers.
Will do this.
I really lke your wonderfull work that you are doing
Hard to know if you really know what I am doing. My website is http://gays4jesus.com and yes I preach the Gospel as a Pentecostal Christian (speaks in tongues and have healing ministry) but most importantly my main calling is to show that all Christians that remain alive we not get Raptured before the Tribulation period, but instead will go through 1260 days of shaking (chastisement, sort of punishment) for church wide sins of the past 2000 years. As an institution, the Church has not been very obedient and often persecuted many innocent people. Christian at every chance love to condemn anything they don’t like and say God hates it. So my message can be very frank and hard towards Believers. I see that it is so very important that Christians needs to BE washed during a 1260 day period to in able the plucking off Earth called the rapture by many Christians. This 1260 days is likened to the time Blood was painted of the door posts and door mantles during the Passover so the first born would not die that night. This 1260 days will be a time of washing away of customs, traditions, false doctrines and a time the God answers the prayer of the innocent ones persecuted by the Church during the past 2000 years. Those rejecting this washing will not be clean enough to be plucked off Earth and so will have to go through the final 1260 days and if they survive that even worse time they will go into the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. During this time of the shaking huge numbers of Christians will turn their back on Jesus because the message of the TWO witnesses seems to harsh for them. My ministry tries to convey the many methods of deceptions an how it will effect Christians in their daily life. I believe if you know what sort of deceptions are coming (and are here now) you will be better able to stand fast and persevere through the coming days.
The other main calling of my ministry is specifically to the false condemnation of gays. There are 14 to 18 verses used for the past 700 years Christian use to condemn gays. There is a very detailed history about how these verses came to be the anti-gay doctrine. It started for the specific goal to create scandal so Christian leaders (namely Catholic) could purge other leaders from office that did not have the same ideals as they had. So they created a false doctrine saying gay is sin and used verses that pertain to gang rape and male temple prostitutes and so conditioned people so they see no reason to research this doctrine and so it is very very hard to show anyone that a male temple prostitute and a gay person are very very different. God even so has in just half a century has brought gays dignity and as we see today it is a concern to these Christians that say gay is sin that the world is so accepting of gays even to the point of legalizing marriage. This is a miracle from God with a history and detailed background.
So when you say you like my wonderful work it should mean you know I am gay and that I speak on this issue as well as the last days.
i want to work with you i can do translation englsih to urdu and punjabi so that herein paksitan chrsitian people may read them and grow in their faith. it will be a wonderfull blessing for all of us.
You certainly can translate anything on any of my websites and blogs and other sites. At least one person in every country has watched my weekly TV programs. Many Christian ministers in Pakistan have contacted me and many Pakistan gays have chatted with me. I don’t have a specific ministry to Pakistan, but happy to chat about anything. If your desire is money in any form then you came to the wrong place. I just not going to be a ministry that support other ministries in their finances or material needs. Being on TV and having a website brings so many Christians begging for money and other material support. I would be happy to correspond (chatting, email) and talk about anything you like. My ministry policy is if $$$ is involved it is not out of my pockets.
i am looking forward for you kind response, GBU
I am not necessarily kind to ministries that come to me, because they often have a motive that is not in the first correspondence. I am very much a servant of the Lord first and foremost, but will not hesitate to stand up to false doctrines that has made slaves of so many Christians.
Pakistan is certainly not western, but where ever the Church goes they most often bring their baggage of customs and false doctrines to any foreign land the take the Gospel. Pakistan’s Christians have to face the real issue of Islam, which is like Christianity in that they love their leaders and hate facts and history research. So, Muslims don’t know that The Vatican invented Islam or would reject anything showing they did. Christians also don’t know this and so treat it like a standard “other gods” religion in their witness to them. I have chatted with 1000s of Muslims and know their style of attempting to convert people to Islam. How you came to Christ and how much of a problem Islam is for your walk you did not mention. You may have little trouble or a lot of trouble. For a westerner Pakistan is primarily Islam and so Christian would have a major part of their live with issues a country that is predominantly Islam. I think Islam was risen up to shake the Church. God rises nations of un-belief to punish God’s people when the are in disobedience. This does not mean Pakistan Christians but the whole Church. After the purpose of shaking God’s people is done God then destroy that disbelieving nation he rose up. I think Christians living in Islam countries have a message and perspective that can help all Christians. But any Christian anywhere is in the middle of 2000 years of Christian groups trying to say their way is right and the other Christian group is wrong. Today the Church is very much a part of giving power to THE Anti-christ. Often directly and also indirectly. Christians today are the Last Days’ Christians and they will see the time Jesus returns and so are confronted with so much that sitting back and not watching should not be an option.
Your in Christ,
Evangelist Fahim John
John
Sunday, June 7, 2009
Does Romans 1:26 condemn lesbians?
Lesbos Harbor on the
Greek island of Lesbos
Rick Brentlinger Answers
(Stables Ministries adds comments in bold)
No, Romans 1:26 does NOT condemn lesbians.
Anti-gay Christians believe Paul is condemning lesbian sexuality in Romans 1:26.
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:" - Romans 1:26
5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591.
5591 psuchikos (psoo-khee-kos');from 5590; sensitive, i.e. animate (in distinction on the one hand from 4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from 5446, which is the lower or bestial nature): KJV-- natural, sensual.
5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
Translated to English: This states a fact that must not be left out of the meaning a HUMAN by Paul is described to be in original form a “seed/egg” like any plant or animal. As all seeds will grow only into the plant that the seed was from (an apple seed will grow into an apple tree not an orange tree) as Paul continues saying there is a built in guarantee that it will indeed grow into an apple tree and no other tree.
Using Romans 1:18-32 requires the humans (the THEY people) absolutely had to be str8 to start out and remained str8 until adulthood where they did something (turned from GOD to gods). Well we have so much info in history that turning to others gods does not make a person gay. Yet to believe these verses talks about gays then verses 24 & 25 was the point in time as adults that str8s turned gay just after turning to other gods. Verse 26-27 is proof it cannot be about gays because gays were already gay and just no facts showing the 650 million gays today had turned to other gods. THERE ARE TONS of facts showing gays discovered they were gay while still children and that those that were Christian did not turn to other gods. Paul had a pet peeve that is well known. He just hated the fact that the Hebrew “married men” often went to fertility temples to have ritual sex with their sacred male prostitutes. Paul saw fertility temple where ever he went they were everywhere a temple on every corner as it were. Paul was not stupid about real gays, as it seems most pro-gays imply. Nine Greek words is really a lot to describe the gays in those days, Paul had plenty of access to gays. Gays were not rare in Paul’s day. If Paul really wanted to talk about real gays, he could easily do so because they were not scarcest. However, Paul was not interested in talking about gays; he felt a strong compellation to expound on the horrid sex orgies going on in fertility temples. One temple Paul visited had over 1000 temple prostitutes. Finally, verse 28-32 exonerates real gays because real gays in real life do about as opposite as describe in those verses as you can get. They are pillars in communities and they fill health facilities and often are caregivers. Employers often state gays are the best workers and leaders. These are the real facts about gays. It is so disgusting when people pick out one verse in a whole story then make a doctrine of that verse. 26 is just one verse 18-32 is the factual story with the cast selected by GOD not man. Christian all too often eliminate the original cast members and insert new characters at 26-27.
Anti-gay Christians arrive at their false conclusion because of other false beliefs they hold. For example, they believe that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 condemn both gay male and lesbian female relationships (even though females/lesbians are not mentioned in the Leviticus verses).
All too often even gays assert these 2 verses must be pretty much about gays and have to revert to imaginations and guessing and wishing to fill in this exception to the rule that “gay is not sin at all” This wishing and guessing and imagining is what homophobes do with all 14 verses in the anti-gay doctrine. Again, the date of the writing and the place and the reason for that chapter is part of a larger story called”Moses leading the Hebrew to a land filled with Milk and Honey”. FACTs are important concerning the Bible. We just can’t wish whatever seems logical based on today’s ideas. You actually have to read the Bible page by page, Leviticus is a hard book of laws with tough consequences if disobeyed. You got to know many things about those days and this info is easy enough to get so there is not much of an excuse not to apply content to accusations. Again, Hebrew married men often went to male temple prostitutes at the local fertility temples along the way to Canaan. These temples always had their sex ritual orgy rooms too. Using the obviously in today’s world excuses to say many of the Leviticus verses don’t apply. But, there is a rhyme to the reason here and it is again a legal system based on God is a jealous GOD and you should not go to other gods period. But they did play around with other gods. We see this for the nation of Israel it seems they are always going after other gods and God has to spank them and even take their country always from them and not give it back for almost 2000 years. People of God just don’t have a good track record which should help you to understand you ain’t gonna be right on many things and you will be going against God often though of course you think you are not, still the fact is Christians and pre-Christians were always disobeying. So, back to FACTs, there are 13 ways to correctly translate to English the verse(s) in Leviticus. 3 of which would make sense for English readers, but would destroy understandability for Hebrew readers. Those 3 ways can make it in an English sentence sound like yes just man with mankind. This is what makes the verse so deceptive and defies discovery it meaning even to apparently the learned. It can keep it meaning a secret causing many gays even to submit to a lesser acceptance that makes gays under conditions imaged that it was to the Levites, as somehow gays can’t have sex while str8s can. This simply cannot be and should have been know by all gays that there is an absolute here and that is “gay is not sin” so somehow someway there is the answer and it has solid foundation. You can theorize all you like, but when you discover the equation does not work then your theory must be changed or modified. Finally, your theories arrive at a point that matches and works and it is a fact then. The word “man” in Hebrew is not like the word man in English. We have one word for man, but Hebrew has more than one word. For some reason it is just a fact translators do not bring over the word meaning when they come to only one English word to multiple Hebrew/Greek words. This word man actually means, “practicing str8 man” and in the sentence it is saying the “man” was almost if not always a str8 married man. The word abomination absolutely needs to be kept as it is supposed to mean. The Bible is not a book with word evolutions making the Bible a different Bible than it was in its origins. All words and its variances in the entire Bible for the word abomination means and has to include it is acts and worshipping of other gods. It simply cannot mean some hated disgusted thing. The other man was a male temple prostitute (sodomite). This is also confirmed in those days and that indeed Hebrew married men went to these fertility temple for ritual sex with their sodomites. Furthermore “Lev 20:13 1: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (KJV)” is not a passing notion but a very specific edict. Those accusing the person had to cast the stones that would put them to death. So, Christians using this verse admit they defy God in disobedience because when they accuse someone they do not put them to death by their hand throwing stones at them. God relates to us as married to him, he using marriage often to give us example of us and God, meaning we commit adultery if we go to other gods. The “womankind” meaning is at best an adulterous woman. So being described is a str8 married man going to a male temple prostitute is like a married man going to another man’s wife. So, it is not even comparing a gay couple to a str8 couple. In conclusion the other 10 out of those 13 ways that can be correct in English is also correct in the grammar of Hebrew and so very readable and understandable in Hebrew is a man that has at least had sex with a woman sleeping with her then he goes to a male temple prostitute for ritual sex. God especially hates this because it is worshipping other gods.
Anti-gay Christians then assume that since Paul was brought up in the Jewish faith, he must have interpreted Lev 18:22 and 20:13 the same way anti-gay Christians interpret them today, as universal proscriptions of all homosexual behavior, including lesbian behavior.
So when they get to Romans 1:26, they interpret "against nature" to mean lesbianism and nothing but lesbianism. According to their opinion, Paul couldn't possibly have been referring to any of the other "against nature" behaviors I list at this Link.
It never seizes to be an uphill battle to get homophobes to back up anything they say about gays. Assuming Jewish faith in Paul’s day equaled anti-gay is a misleading lie. There are many very interesting stories about real gays in those ancient days that more than shows gays were not that much of an issue. If gays were really such an issue, we would have tons of info of the anti-gay rhetoric of those days. Only those that take the time discover in ancient days there really is a lot about gays, how they married in Jewish customs and much more. What terms were used and that Jesus used a phrase that means gays, as we understand them today. I think Paul was incredibly used of God. The Bible’s New Testament has more of his books than anyone else and really takes up a good part of the NT. How can we turn Paul into an idiot? However, all too often even gays badmouth him and many Christians don’t think he was to keen on woman. This simply again turns the Bible into a mistake, this can’t be. First thoughts should be “I don’t understand this writing Paul has about women”, but Paul was used by God and God didn’t make a mistake about Paul. Seems we love to play games guessing that Paul had a thing against women. This can’t be, it is just we love to interrupt the Bible into our own experiences and word evolution so we miss the teaching from God through Paul. In Romans, it took men and women in those fertility temple sexual orgy rooms. Had nothing to do with gays. The “THEY” people of verse:
Rom 1:20-21 20 …so that “they” are without excuse: 21 Because that, when “they” knew God, “they” glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; (KJV)
were who this story is talking about not gay.
If it does not fit,
you must acquit.
The anti-gay interpretation of Romans 1:26 does not fit the rest of scripture however, since lesbians are never condemned in the Old Testament or anyplace in the New Testament.
LESBIANS/GAYS are not condemned anywhere in the Bible. In around the 12th century a few powerful Catholic leaders decided it was time to invent a false doctrine to create scandal to purge leaders from high office that did not have the same ideals and they. 12 of the 14 verses were picked out at that time. 100 years later the Protestants adopted that and when Christians came to America they brought a heinous version of it here. In 1850 at a USA clergy convention they discussed 1 Cor 6:9 and all agreed that masturbators as taught had to change or heaven would be empty as all agreed everyone did it. This verse had under gone many transformations over the last 1000 years as was at masterbators would not inherit. They chose to replace masturbators with homosexual because no one would miss them and already 12 verses were being used against gays. In the late 1940s, the actual 2 Greek words were taken out of some modern versions and homosexual inserted, a word not in the Bible. In ancient days at least 9 Greek words could have been used, but Paul chose a word that meant the Hebrew word for sodomite and catamite (male temple prostitute and expensive call boy). In the Bible there are plenty enough lesbian and gay characters all in a positive stance some legally married according to those day’s customs.
Here is an interesting look at Romans 1:26 from Jeramy's helpful website.
"While Romans 1:18-32 is the primary text used from the New Testament by those people who condemn homosexuality, that interpretation has not always been the interpretation of this passage.
For example, verse 26, which is the only verse in Scripture which is often interpreted today to refer to lesbian sexuality, is often used to round out the beliefs of those who condemn all homosexuality as sin, since all of the other alleged condemnations of homosexuality specifically refer to male-male behavior, linguistically excluding female-female behavior.
Also, does not matter the church or pastor, this verse(s) always has a complete sermon about the depravity of mankind with nothing at all mentioned about gays. It seems pastors can preach a sermon on any verse and slap in any old topic they want to cover. However, they quickly will use that verse to separate out gays when they want to do a sermon against gays. Yes, 100% I believe many verses have multiple uses and are overlaid to mesh together the whole picture of God’s plan. Generally, there are 3 presentations of each Bible subject. One represence the actual history of the event in the details it happened of God’s chosen people the Hebrews. Another, that detail as a representative of the Church and its 2000 year history as a spiritual embodiment of the actual historic events. Then specific to each individual in their personal walk and relationship with Jesus. Sort of a 3 in one story is what the Bible is, plus all the extra things stuffed in the LIVING word of God.
As to the getting specific to female aspect, a detailed in-depth research and study was done to determine was there info in writing about real gays as we would know them today. Again, I stand up for women as equals flat out and period personally, however, history does not do that very well and discovering did Jesus talk about real gays and were there gay marriages in his day written history in a study of 10s of 1000s of documents usually it is the male gay person that is available in writings. Enough though about lesbians are in these studies to know they indeed were there. My suggestion to help better understand lack of equality in researching this info without an extreme effort is explained in the Bible as a curse put on man and woman:
Gen 3:16-19 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (KJV)
“and he shall rule over thee” This as with “work till you sweat with difficulties thrown in” was not in the beginning but came after disobedience of eating that APPLE. We make laws today to keep men in line to respect women. Men just think they are women’s boss this is a 6000-year-old curse that will remain till the Rapture. So finding good info about women take a lot more effort but few seem to take up this effort. I appreciate those that have. It is amazing to learn what they learn God just does not have issues with using women for his Glory. There are some very fantastic stories available. History is full of lesbian heroes as it were.
Looking back at early interpreters of this verse, while some have believed that this verse referred to lesbians (John Chrysostom), many key church leaders have not held this view, such as Clement of Alexandria and Saint Augustine, who believed this to be anal or oral sex between heterosexuals (Brooten, 1985; Miller, 1995).
This is just why doing your own homework is what being a Christian all is about. Many think they are teachers; you can’t be a teacher unless you studied and not just things you agree with. Saint Augustine nearly single-handedly heaped sex guilt on probably all human on Earth after his message got out. He owned a concubine for a while and was very much a riotous liver for a good part of his early life. For the sake of a wealthy woman he sold his concubine and began his journey into creating a sex is sin Church.
One early Christian writer, Anastasios, clearly dismisses the view that Paul was referring to lesbianism in his comments on Romans 1:26:
Clearly they (the females referred to in Romans 1:26) do not go into one another, but rather offer themselves to the men. (Brooten, 1996, p. 337n)
And not just for sex pleasuring, but specifically in ritual orgies in fertility worship.
Augustine continues this line of thought (fairly explicitly):
But if one has relations even with one's wife in a part of the body which was not made for begetting children, such relations are against nature and indecent. In fact, the same apostle earlier said the same thing about women, "For their women exchanged natural relations for those which are against nature." quoting Romans 1:26 (Marriage and Desire, 20.35)"
Other important history is sex with the wife was to make babies only (first 1000 years of Christianity) sex for love or pleasure legally could be done with a mistress or concubine. Augustine began a shift that would forever make the bi-product of sex to be guilt in many people. I hear often from a broad section of society that after sex they felt dirty and like they did something wrong. Then the 12th century brought in today’s style of dating and marriages. So many pagans came to Christianity that they brought their fertility marriages customs with them. Soon it became thought as Christian in origin.
There is however, ONE female sexual practice which IS condemned in the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 23:17-18, which is linked to Gentile idolatry and which perfectly fits Paul’s "against nature" argument.
That sexual practice is female shrine prostitution, using sex to worship Ashtoreth, the fertility goddess consort of the male fire-god Molech.
“Shrine prostitutes” seems a little misleading saying shrine is a word that became popularized with modern version bible which are satan counterfeit bible (see Westcott and Hort they got the modern versions in your hands) The word is FERTILITY Temple. Shrine seems to lessen the severity of the specifics of the sexual natural of the other gods’ temples. A shrine is like a simple a consecrated of hollowed place. By its simple meaning, it can mean church’s alter. It is the very sexual nature of these other gods that is the foundation of the condemnation of gays. Though for many gays the recognition that saying shrine prostitute makes it better that saying homosexual and it is mostly an ME thing of wanting it to be very very clear that the Bible is referring to the many FERTILITY temples in the day of Moses and the day of Paul. Also, what I have seen left out often is reference to Cybele the mother of the gods from about 2 centuries before Paul and for some centuries after Paul.
Qedesha-female shrine prostitutes, are mentioned in Genesis 38:21-22, Deuteronomy 23:17, and Hosea 4:14. It better fits the context of Paul's argument in Romans 1:26 (idolatry) to understand that Paul is referring to the illicit sexual practice of female shrine prostitutes who serviced men than that, suddenly and unaccountably, with no Biblical basis from the Old Testament, Paul injects into his teaching against idolatry, a one verse condemnation of lesbians, (which is unrelated to idolatry) and which is without any basis in the Old Testament.
Gen 38:21 21 Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place. (KJV)
6948 qedeshah (ked-ay-shaw'); feminine of 6945; a female devotee (i.e. prostitute): KJV-- harlot, whore.
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
Him can it be me not seeing this verse or connecting it to the list of anti-gay false doctrine. WOW, I am impressed. Heere is an example of just reading a verse and not paying attention to actual word meaning. I remember reading this verse many times, and just assume she was a prostitute after all a woman on the street as describe got to be a ordinary though obliviously important prostitute. See just clicking for the meaning and sure enough the female form of fertility prostitute. Yet all fertility prostitutes are almost if not all designed for men having sex with them in ritual worship. So, as was with this “harlot” men were seeking her.
Hosea 4:14 14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall. (KJV)
2181 zanah (zaw-naw'); a primitive root [highly-fed and therefore wanton]; to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment); figuratively, to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah):
KJV-- (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.
Well you got mostly ordinary sexual immorality in this verse but it does also have Harlot “female temple prostitute” too. So, I got 2 additional verses that I think really needed to be in the false anti-gay doctrine. Finally, a representation of Lesbianism is not sin. Like most of the verse used against gays are really about rape, fertility male prostitutes and ritual orgies so is the 2 verses some use to condemn lesbians they also are talking about fertility sexual rites to other gods.
It mentions here the marriage comparison of the people of God as being the spouse of God as I mention much earlier.
Sunday, May 17, 2009
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