You said gay is not a sin, but you are either forgetting or intentionally excluding every New Testament verse that says that the homosexual shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Also, Jesus Christ did speak out against homosexuality when he confirmed the natural relationship between a man and a woman. It is easy to promote something when you change the conditions and terms to fit your argument. Just like the recent FairTax, people have to change the terms to shoot it down.
1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (KJV)
1 Tim 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (KJV)
Every NT verse? I count two in the 700 year old Church doctrine against gays. Any additional verse is that of your everyday all people sins and acts and are not orientation oriented. Homophobes add in other verses that do not have reference to male to male sex and are very general covering all people. Homophobes add in these other verses to emphasize the perception gay is already a sin and no proof need or no backup needed.
There is only one verse in the whole Bible that has the phrase won’t inherit so what does every verse that has won’t inherit mean to you? Look how easy it is for you to say Jesus confirmed with no backup.
I will assume you mean:
Matt 19:5-6 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
But this would mean most str8 Christians disobey God because they leave mother and father to do everything but get married only later they may marry.
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (KJV)
Are you in danger of trying to split apart what God joins together? So much detail history and personal testimony you got to explain away I guarantee you God joined my lover to me. We now have been together 18 years.
Matt 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. (KJV) WOW go figure the Apostles made quite a statement here.
You are right about changing things to fit your argument. It takes considerable effort to try to keep your anti-gay doctrine viable. So the easiest way is not to back up your mouth when you say gay is sin, just use a few verses claiming they condemn gays so you need to do nothing more.
I in no way hate people who are homosexual.
Hate is a behavior. Words are as good as your acts. When you say gay is sin and you do not provide information showing the Bible really is talking about gays you are displaying hate behavior. Had you love you would go into a closet and study indepth. With 670 million gays today it seems like a good idea to be right if you are saying gay is sin. There is so much history and so much information and so many people to talk to about their walk as a gay Christians that there just is no excuse for blatant no hope statements.
In reality, Satan seduces a person to believe the lie that he or she desires someone of the same sex in a sexual manner.
670 million people in the world today that are gay why don’t you tell me the way satan seduces people to be gay. Every walk of life, every country, every time period every condition. WOW how horrible of satan to take a 5 – 12 year old and trick them into being gay. Guess satan really is this sort of evil. God really lets satan got to very young boys and girls and it does not matter what their life is or what their parents have or have not done satan can make anyone he wants gay?
Do you think other gays seduced all new gay into being gay? Jimmy Swaggart does for sure. Do you have any idea about people and what occurs when they grow up? Everyplace you turn around it is str8 sex str8 marriage str8 dating. Str8s have a million meeting places and can meet in plain site, in church and they can smooth publically and were told all their young life that one day you will be married and have kids. So with every source pounding be str8 into every human on earth how does satan trick completely ordinary people into being gay?
I can explain in detail how you found out you were str8 and it had nothing to do with any previous conditioning. You had no concept of sex or why people date and kiss for a very long time of your childhood. With TV and book and talk you knew something was going on and as you got closer to puberty this was more interesting to you. But still you could have cared less physically. But something began to happen and you began to find yourself wanting the opposite sex very badly, you learn what it was to be horny and now your peers to were feeling this and some were very graphic in explaining their feeling. You just had to start dating period. Your body throbbing at every turn and I can go into a great deal of detail, but you know this time in your life. So tell me did you choose to be str8 or could have satan popped in and somehow give you some sort of suggestion to be something everyone very clearly hated?
Can a child decide to be gay and risk losing all their friends and may end up being taken to a psychiatrists? Tell me how many 8 – 12 year old have you interviewed? How many adult gays have you interviewed to find out how they came to know they were gay? I am possibly the most educated person on the issue of be privileged to hear the most intimate testimonies of gays. And it is almost a 100% discovering process with no seductions by anyone else. Average age of a gay person discovering they are gay is 9 – 12 and their testimonies are very very detailed. Tell me how satan seduces innocent kids. 670 million gays today I beg you tell me everyone of them lies about how they found out they were gay. It is exactly the same as when you found out you were str8. You may h ave always thought you were str8, but most of that is conditioning. It is only when your body wakes up to sex and emotions of love that you know you are str8. Mostly it is a who cares, nothing shocking nothing new nothing out of the ordinary, but even so entering into this period is tough for str8s.
I know of many who were as flamboyant as can be and discovered liberty when Jesus Christ freed them from homosexuality.
Your statement lacks investigation. I am an expert on the ex-gay thing. Meaning ex-gay ministries, ex-gay leaders, and ex-gays themselves. Flamboyant can be found in str8s very often this is not a gay trait. Most gays you cannot have a clue they are gay by any way they are acting. Being a queen is a very poor way to represent gays. There are transsexuals, transgenders, and transvestites and bisexuals all of which are tossed into the gay class so using people with obvious characteristics is not even dealing with real gays in the tune of 670 million people.
Exodus International began the modern ex-gay movement in 1974 time frame I accepted Jesus in 1974 so this movement was flesh and talked about. Dignity and MCC (Catholic and Protestant gay churches) began 1967-68. Information was becoming more available and I always loved information and history and facts and so I ate up knowledge. For the first 27 years of my life I was an atheist. Truth was my god. I loved anything to do with history and science and development and culture and people. I became aware I was gay in early 7th grade. In those days I thought I was the only one. I did not have sex till I was 21 with someone and he became my lover for 10 years.
He got me to the Assemblies of God in 1974. When I accepted Jesus (long story) I got really hooked on Jesus. I read the KJV many times crying all through it. During these early years I lived in Christian book stores learning everything I could and seeing everything str8 Christians had to say about gays because they say it is a sin so I needed to see this. In homophobes’ books you can see gay is not sin because so many lies about gays. It is easy to see lies when you are gay and homophobes say things that just is not true at all.
Anyway, I have personally investigated and researched and personally interviewed over 200 ex-gay ministries and have over 100 detailed testimonies of ex-gay leaders. The original Exodus founders became lovers and went across the country explaining ho wrong they were and were very sorry for hurting so many in that ministry (techniques in ex-gay ministries is behavior modification techniques not Bible, Bible is used for justification using secular practices) On average ex-gays last 1 -2 years and ex-gay leaders 6 -8 years before finding out gay is not sin or it just flat does not work the ex-gay thing. Again I can go into detail about ex-gays further if you like. And I can guarantee you that any one you know or are using as a reference to changing I can punch holes in it in a few questions. People claiming deliverance is trying to use the “claim it and its yours” doctrine.
Homosexual has always been a sexual practice of the world and directly against God's design for sex, which is one man with one woman within their marriage only. God only abhors fornication because it violates this design.
This is your claim based in your conditioning with you not backing up your claim. There are 14 possible verses you can use that is the anti-gay doctrine that is most often used and has anything to do with male to male sex all. Two of these 14 do not refer to male to male sex but are commonly use so I add them in.
The Bible word for fornication:
FORNICATION, FORNICATOR
A. Nouns.
1. porneia ^4202^ is used (a) of "illicit sexual intercourse," in
2. pornos ^4205^ denotes "a man who indulges in fornication, a fornicator," <1>, RV; <1>, RV;
B. Verbs.
1. porneuo ^4203^ "to commit fornication," is used (a) literally, , see (a) and (b) above; (b) metaphorically,
2. ekporneuo ^1608^, a strengthened form of No. 1 (ek, used intensively), "to give oneself up to fornication," implying excessive indulgence,
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
(Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
4202 porneia (por-ni'-ah); from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:
KJV-- fornication.
4203 porneuo (porn-yoo'-o); from 4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry: KJV-- commit (fornication).
4204 porne (por'-nay); feminine of 4205; a strumpet; figuratively, an idolater: KJV-- harlot, whore.
4205 pornos (por'-nos); from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of 4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): KJV-- fornicator, whoremonger.
4097); a (male) prostitute this is not orientation specific so you need to go to history to see what was common male prostitutes outside of male temple prostitution. In Jesus’ day gays just did not need to hire a street prostitute or any prostitutes for sex, however str8 males prostitutes (gigolos) were sort of common in Jesus’ day
Homosexuality anti-gay doctrine was invented in the 12th century by a few influential Catholic leaders foe evil gain. They wanted a doctrine they could use to purge people from power in a scandal that did not have the same ideals as they had. Being against gays was rare until this doctrine.
If you promote that you don't have to change, then you did not really repent all of your sins.
Promote???? Who is promoting? It is str8 homophobes that feel they must condemn gays every time almost that they talk about any kind of sin in a sermon. It is str8 Christians that has the guidelines to vote against anyone running for office that is gay supportive in any fashion. It is str8s that took two Greek words out of the Bible and inserted the word homosexual.
When gays accept Jesus guess what happens? They do the same 180 degree you did when you accepted Jesus. You can begin to see many changes in their lives, some dramatic some not very noticeable. Some takes years even decades just like str8s that accepted Jesus. What you means is there is only one thing gays have to do to prove they accepted Jesus and that is change to str8.
What I would like to see you try is change to gay (meaning a test case to see how one can change their orientation) Try not having sex with the opposite site and try dating same sex. Or if you are one that thinks at least abstain then you abstain for a period of time you are asking gays to abstain from sex.
Your mouth just speaks and it does not consider the words that come out of it and the effect they would have if implemented. I am supposing you are married and love your spouse, now assume str8 is sin and you are accepting Jesus and have to add Jesus I will leave my spouse and never have str8 sex again. To you this sounds stupid, but you are telling this to gays. You are tell gays to toss out the one they love dearly and then to never have sex again or somehow meet opposite sex and get married. Tell me you being str8 can you right now stop being str8 and marry a same sex person? This is what you are asking. I know you say its in the bible, but up to now that is the max you have said except that there are many places in the Bible that says gays won’t inherit.
Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you are preaching Satan's message and not God's.
Ok this is so extremely simple produce Bible. Tell me how gang rape really means a gay couple in love and with each other faithfully for 18 years is what Gen 19 is talking about. Tell me where Paul saw real gays. Paul can’t just have had a dream where God inspired him write gay is sin. Paul was in Corinth and in Rome and on every street corner nearly was a fertility temple with male temple prostitutes and cutting off junior was also done so str8 men can feel better going to a sacred male prostitute. I would love to see how you get Paul or any one that wrote books in the Bible to be talking about gays. Why are you invoking satan’s name? Why not present Bible and historical fact. Invoking satan’s name is a no brainer, cast him out along with any demon. If they are stubborn fast and prayer. After all the Bible says no demon or satan can withstand a saint using the name of Jesus. Worst case is the demons will come out but place is clean he will bring 7 more worse demons back so then you can see that the person is at least 7 times worse than before. Problem here is you cannot find this in real gays. Real gays have really decent lives and are so helpful in society taking care of you in so many ways and are employers’ best workers and so forth. Prove Romans 1:28-32 in real gays. You cannot. I been in the Assemblies of God for 34 years and I suggest you read their statement of faith. For it is mine also and 34-35 years in the AOG sort of conditions you in a lot of ways to much of their doctrines and so you would not be condemn my sermons’ foundations as you would be conditioning AOG.
A gay or lesbian can change, but the reality is that fleshly lust is more pleasurable than submitting to God.
A homophobe cop out is to call what is ordinarily str8 love i.e. dating romancing falling in love and marrying to be LUST if gays do it. Please tell me how giving roses to the person you love is lust. Tell me how looking into someone’s eye and being in la la land and you can call this lust. How can when someone is hurt you life changes in deep concern of losing this person. How can lust HURT so bad when you break up with someone you loved so dearly. Why is your love your kissing your hugging your holding hands with someone they you are claiming you love different. But you have to call gays lust or else you would see love.
It is no different than with fat acceptance organizations that enable fat people who have lost desire to lose weight because of failed diets. Organizations such as yours are not of God because your message is opposite of what God's message is.
Ex-gay ministries do not work, fat groups works. Smokers stop drinkers stop addicts stop. Testimonies and the records detail masses quitting for lifetime, though lots it is a very hard task to quit, you just cannot get even those that fail to get into any real meeting positive discourse or fact presenting process to show these other habits is good. AAA or any group designed to help people get out of conditioning habits or anything deemed bad and the people going to these groups all have a unified response throughout time. Alcohol drugs smoking are bad flat out. Smokers know beyond doubt they are killing themselves and this is completely provable.
There just is very little resistance to this entire thing you refer to when you use fat people as an example. But when you get to gays, suddenly from every corner you get a ton of info and fact. Gays are often like any other human on Earth conditioned by the antigay doctrine, many gays believes they sin against God and do come up with a co-existence with their perceived sin. Truth sets people free lies keeps people in bondage. Many gays feel bad because their church condemns them their family condemns them co-workers and school condemns them. And people well meaning like you condemns them. Probably most gays do not study and do not know the facts. Often gays have anointer knowledge from God that gay is not sin. I have seen and heard testimony from many gays that God comforts them and they live very good lives inspire of all sources condemning them. Times are changing with access to all knowledge online even the less likely gays to have access to info are now learning facts about gay is not sin.
Why can’t you study or at least study your mouth and go get info about gays that say it is in the Bible and it is condemned. Don’t just use phrases and sentences that are not doing anything more than saying “it’s in the Bible” Quoting a verse is not explaining it. So what if you can read a verse, tell me how you get any word to mean real gays and not male temple prostitutes or gang rapists?
God bless.
From: davegooley@optonline.net [mailto:davegooley@optonline.net] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:53 AMTo: GFJ1&1Subject: Re: RE: Contact The Stables Ministries for any reason
Who said I was using a Satan counterfeit Bible? I happen to read William Tyndale's translation that preceeds the KJV, and in fact, the Tyndale was used by the KJV translators as the base for the KJV with many changes of the words.
Your words “but you are either forgetting or intentionally excluding every New Testament verse that says that the homosexual shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” The 2 references you say you are using do not use the word homosexual. Here are the current Bible that do use the word homosexual
Amplified - 1958 - those who participate in homosexuality
New English - 1970 - guilty of homosexual perversion
NKJV - 1979 – homosexuals
Complete Jewish Bible - 1998 - active or passive homosexuality
God’s Word Translation - 2006 – homosexuals
The NET Bible - 2006 - passive homosexual partners
NIV - 1974 - nor homosexual offenders
KJV – 1611 - nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
These come out of a list:
Wycliffe - 1380 - neische
Wycliffe - 1388 - letchouris ayen kinde
Tyndale - 1526 - weaklinges
Martin Luther - 1534 - weichlinge
Coverdale - 1535 - weaklinges
Matthews - 1537 - weaklinges
Great Bible - 1539 - weaklynges
Swedish Version - 1541 - weaklingar
Geneva Bible - 1560 - wantons
Bishops Bible - 1568 - weaklinges
Valera Spanish - 1602 - effeminados
Rheims-Douay - 1609 - effeminat
King James Version - 1611 - effeminate
Portuguese - 1690 - efeminados
Daniel Mace New Testament - 1729 - the effeminate
Darby - 1884 - those who make women of themselves
Darby French - 1885 - effemines
Young’s Literal - 1898 - effeminate
ASV - 1901 - effeminate
Weymouth - 1903 - any who are guilty of unnatural crime
Louis Segund French - 1910 - effemines
Moffat - 1913 - catamites (boys who have sex with men)
Lamsa Translation - 1933 - men who lie down with males
New American - 1941 - sodomites
Revised Standard - 1952 - sexual perverts
Amplified - 1958 - those who participate in homosexuality
NASB - 1963 - effeminate
New American Bible - 1970 - boy prostitutes
New English - 1970 - guilty of homosexual perversion
NIV - 1973 - male prostitutes (note: NIV added this phrase not in the Bile “homosexual offenders”}
NKJV - 1979 - homosexuals
JW-NWT - 1984 - men kept for unnatural purposes
New Century - 1987 - male prostitutes
Green’s Interlinear - 1986 - abusers
NRSV - 1989 - male prostitutes
Bible In Basic English - 1994 - one who is less than a man
CEV - 1995 - pervert
NLT - 1996 - male prostitute
Complete Jewish Bible - 1998 - active or passive homosexuality
International Standard Version - 2000 - male prostitutes
The Message - 2002 - those who use and abuse each other
World English Bible - 2005 - male prostitutes
God’s Word Translation - 2006 - homosexuals
The NET Bible - 2006 - passive homosexual partners
Homosexual was first added to the Bible in around 1946 and there are many more version than listed above. NIV now is TNIV and homosexual offenders was changed to practicing homosexuals. So would be nice to see how you get your Greek to mean homosexual.
Two sources:
William Tyndale's Translation
Do ye not remember how that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god? Be not deceived. For neither fornicators, neither worshippers of images, neither whoremongers, neither weaklings, neither abusers of themselves with mankind, neither thieves, neither the covetous, neither drunkards, neither cursed speakers, neither pillers, shall inherit the kingdom of god.
William Tyndale's Translation
9 Do ye not remember how that the vnrighteous shall not inheret the kyngdome of God? Be not deceaved. For nether fornicators nether worshyppers of ymages nether whormongers nether weaklinges nether abusars of them selves with the mankynde
10 nether theves nether the coveteous nether dronkardes nether cursed speakers nether pillers shall inheret the kyngdome of God.
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.
3120 malakos (mal-ak-os'); of uncertain affinity; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); figuratively, a catamite: KJV-- effeminate, soft.
Arsenokoites is used 76 times in 1600 years most of them that you can associate a reference to anything is sex out of species. Otherwise this word is iin direct reflection of the word in Hebrew in 7 of the 14 verses:
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
6942 qadash (kaw-dash'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): KJV-- appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied oneself,), X wholly. 6943 Qedesh (keh'-desh); from 6942; a sanctum; Kedesh, the name of four places in Palestine: KJV-- Kedesh.
If I can find these and you say I am twisting the use of these words then please again I beg you present a true meaning of these words by something like I am doing using original languages and actual historical facts.
In reality, from your statement of "counterfeit bible" shows you are prejudice, something without the fruit of the spirit.
I came to Jesus because I loved truth. It is so very difficult to understand your best answers to gays it I justify with prejudice being gay. I have just so much information about my history online at my website and so many links at that site and 23 years on TV with 34 plus years in the Assemblies of God I am sorry to pop your bubble but gays just don’t try to manipulate truth. They happen to come to Jesus like you did, Jesus is the way the life and the truth. You cannot create a magical behavior of gays to be different than you about Jesus and the Bible. Gays are not out to prove the Bible wrong or into some strange new ageism that might render parts of the Bible into wishful thinking.
I don’t lightly say all modern versions are satan counterfeits. Obviously you did not go to site about Westcott and Hort. I left their names on purpose to give you the reason I say all modern versions are satan counterfeits. 91,000 pages on these two. There is a history on the Bible that is not generally taught. There are two versions of the original copies of the originals. One is corrupt and not just corrupt but specific designed to take Christ out of Jesus. The other is an exact hand written copy of the originals that there is no know original today of the originals.
Both were translated to Latin Vulgate in the 2nd century separately from each other during that century. The real manuscripts are called Received Text. This was used up to KJV then all existing REC’D TEXT faded away leaving the KJV to become widely used and most popular and readily available to all.
The corrupt version was lost hidden unseen till the 15th century where the Pope was ordered to make it the official Catholic Bible. Westcott and Hort came along and in the 1880s got the corrupt version to become the Official Church of England’s Bible where all modern versions comes from. Not a fly by night rendering to make all modern versions satan counterfeits. Satan counterfeits everything God so yes indeed modern version is perfect conditioning tool of satan to prepare Christians to turn their backs on Jesus (see my Last Days ministry for more info). Discovery that satan has so deceived you should make you sick to your stomach when you discover he tricked you to thick modern versions were just another way to say the same thing and is close enough to be called the Word of God. I was sick for over a week it felt so defiling to know I was reading satan counterfeit Bible (though my favorite was KJV and it was KJV that I got to Know Jesus in).
You are also defending a sexual practice that is the seduction and delusion of Satan.
And yet you will not even try to explain one of the 14 verses,
1. Gen 2:22 Steve is was in the DNA (God did not make Adam and Steve)
RIB 6763 tsela` (tsay-law');or (feminine) tsal` ah (tsal-aw'); from 6760; a rib (as curved), literally (of the body) or figuratively (of a door, i.e. leaf); hence, a side, literally (of a person) or figuratively (of an object or the sky, i.e. quarter); architecturally, a (especially floor or ceiling) timber or plank (single or collective, i.e. a flooring):KJV-- beam, board, chamber, corner, leaf, plank, rib, side (chamber).6760 tsala` (tsaw-lah');a primitive root: probably to curve; used only as denominative from 6763, to limp (as if one-sided):KJV-- halt.
Key above is the word chamber is used at least 11 times in the Bible with the same word RIB in Gen 2:22. The is a Hebrew word used in the Bible that if used in Gen 2:22 absolutely word mean RIB "bone". A long time TBN host Hebrew scholar said his intensive research found the best modern English word to be "CELL from that RIB" This is not that easy to find so don't expect to blink and you will find this. It is up to you how deep you want to study Hebrew meanings to words. If this verse is chosen to condemn gays a great deal of expaining is needed because in the GARDEN the world was very different and so many things come into question.
2. Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angelsThis verse tells you a lot of people are invollved and that it is not just men. Wickedly means death to the angels was the intention. No one can survice this word. Later Lots daughters raped their dad.3. Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.Similar story as Gen. but they did accept the offer of a daughter and did rape her to death.Sodomites4. Deut 23:17 don't be a male temple prostitute5. IKing 14:24 rarely used male temple prostitute6. IKing 15:12 rarely used male temple prostitute7. IKing 22:46 rarely used male temple prostitute8. II Ki 23:7 rarely used male temple prostitute6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.6942 qadash (kaw-dash'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): KJV-- appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied oneself,), X wholly. 6943 Qedesh (keh'-desh); from 6942; a sanctum; Kedesh, the name of four places in Palestine: KJV-- Kedesh.This is the key word in 7 of the 14 verses people use to say gay is sin.Tons of history on fertility temples This should not be in the anti-gay doctrine because of the obvious and well document actual word meaning and actual temples frequently by Hebrew men.
9. Lev 18:22 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress10. Lev 20:13 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress"v'es zaachaar lo tishkav mishk'vey ishaw to'eyvaa hi.""And man not you-lie-with lyings with-woman detestable that.""And man not you-lie-with ones-who-lie with-woman detestable that.""And man not you-lie-with in-beds of-woman detestable that."In short above is a very brief showing that the man alreaady slep with women and loved it. http://s91536390.onlinehome.us/gaysforjesus/HebrewGrammer.htm this link is the detailed version. To summerize these 2 verses: "practicing hebrew str8 men" went to male temple prostitues for ritual sex to the fertility gods as Moses was leading them to the Promise Land.11. Rom 1:27-28 Should be 18-32. adults turned from God, God changed them, results visible evil behavior12. 1 Cor 6:9 call boy and temple prostitute, 1950 original Greek removed, meant masturbation before 185013. 1 Tim 1:10 temple prostituteGenerally a carbon copy of the Hebrew word for sododmite above. see http://www.gaychristian101.com/index.html for deetails on these verses and much more on all these verses.14. Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientationRefers to no sexual orientation just general immorality of the 2 cities.4205 pornos (por'-nos); from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of 4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): KJV-- fornicator, whoremonger.The male prostitute is nearly 100% chance of being a str8 man selling his body to women as was plenty common in those days. Rare was the gay prostitute, this was just not the situation in those days that a man needed to pay a man for sex (other than male temple prostitutes)
The verse I am referring to is Mark 10:6, where Jesus Christ says that from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (KJV)
The Bible has many verses and stories. If you play in the Garden you have to abide by Garden rules. Sex was with brothers and sisters; babies came from sex of a brother and a sister. Today it is a very rare cast to find any Christian let along any str8 person leaving mother and father to get married. Many other things are the reason people leave mother and father so you are already creating a discourse in arguments about how disobedient Christians are on the verse you bring up. I do go and did go into this issue above and in many places on my website and on my TV programs. You just type in a book and chapter and verse number nothing more. It is completely against every fiber of your hatred of gays to explain why you use a verse and what about the tons of other verses and so much more. God obeys his creation rules too. Speaking to masses has perimeters. The speaker speaks to the commonality of the biggest percentage of the listeners. If most are str8 guarantee you in any speaking engagement you go to it will be addressed in terms for the str8s. Built in God created feature of humans is the nature to relate to a topic of any kind in any speech. This is not hogwash but actual process in human managing of thought. If you were a student of how the brain interacts with input not only you will be amazed at God creation but amazed how the brain can relate to general speaking to a body consisting mostly of a certain group. In an all male fraternity you are not going to hear much about application to women, this is pretty truth in daily life women has to adapt to a man’s world.
The Bible is and has been pointed by many oriented to the man. But somehow women can easily apply it to themselves, though there are some Bible that are changing over to all inclusive language as to not emphasize man bout more people not presenting gender. This topic is fascination with tons of info in real applications of people adapting what they hear to fit their needs. God follows this rule in the Bible because it is rules of human interactions. To get into specific groups you can turn the Bible page to another story to hear about a different group of people. You also have to figure out how you explain people that have condition that don’t allow marriage at all.
Then you have real life in the Days’ of Jesus where there is no resemblance at all to today’s style of marriage. You have written in the Bible Greek words used I n sequence grammar that is marriages to any person of Jesus’ day. Just because you do not study Hebrew or Greek and marriage in Jesus day does not make all that happen disappear. Jesus goes on after the apostles said then it is not good for a man to marry to say a phrase that in-depth research into 10s of 1000s of documents from Jesus days to mean flat out gays and Jesus is very positive about this. You can try to wish away 10s of 1000s of ancient documents but they still exist defining gays and words used to be talking about real gays. It is very correct to even translate a phrase Jesus said as “gay is not sin”.
Homosexuality is based on lust of the flesh because it doesn't have any part of the design God established.
Again you make gay just lust and again I tell you it is as lustful as your marriage is, if you are not married then as lustful as a marriage you hope to be in or at least look at your mom and dad to find the lust you say gays live in.. The Bible is big and God’s establish creation is immense and you try to put God in a box that fits your image of him. Take a trip in the Holy Spirit someday, let the Holy Spirit show you God’s creation, you cannot fathom it, trillions of light years and that is the tip of the iceberg on God’s creation and we have not even the beginnings of an idea what is to come in the new Earth and new uniniverse. And in all this God will be the same then as now and as he was.
As for accusing you of not knowing what the Bible says, you have shown your prejudice again. I never said you didn't know the Bible. I will say you are misusing and misquoting the Bible to justify a sexual practice Satan invented.
Simple you show me, explain to me how you get gay into a verse, a word, a phrase. For satan to invent something you have to show where he invented it or you are guessing and wishing based on your hatred, there is certainly no Bible or lost books of the Bible or forgotten books of Eve or any ancient writings used as Bible for centuries by Christians that show satan inventing gays, but you can see in all the fertility temple in Paul’s day and in Moses’ day all manner of carving showing str8s having all sorts of sexual orgies to fertility gods and goddesses. If I misquote correct me, I am very very happy to read what you show me on how you get male temple prostitutes to mean love between to guys like your marriage.
As for you accusing me of being affiliated with Assemblies of God, I am not a member of any denomination.
I said I was Assemblies of God not you. I just wanted you to tell me your background.
My identity is that I am a born anew Christian and I fellowship with any other person who is also born anew.
HMM so you don’t even have a church background so in deviant of God saying join yourselves together as you see the day approaching:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (KJV)
Somehow with no support system you are going it alone except for occasional running into someone to talk with, what a pity do you know that many extra strong homophobes are churchless and are inventing it as the go along as though they can create a magical they are the only ones right church. It is especially hard to deal with those that have no roots in Jesus but are free lance for they can wish whatever the will and no one can tell them they are wrong.
Just as the Bible says, when 2 or 3 are gathered together in the name of Jesus Christ, he is in the midst of them. Born anew is defined as believing in God, repenting of all sins, putting my faith in Jesus Christ and asking God to save me based on the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Salvation is simple but then it gets complex: Here are all saved related verses, these are just verses: http://gays4jesus.com/saved.html
Honestly, maybe if you stopped hiding behind your personal theology and denomination and read the Bible for the truth rather than misuse it to justify a sexual practice that Satan invented, you wouldn't show an absence of the fruit of the spirit through your prejudice about anyone who disagrees with your opinion and opposes your ungodly theology that being gay is not a sin.
Assemblies of God is the largest Pentecostal church in the world TBN was founded by an AOG pastor, probly no country exist without AOGS.Here is their and my statement of faith http://s91536390.onlinehome.us/gaysforjesus/Statement.html they indeed also believe the Catholic antigay doctrine but otherwise we are pretty identical in faith.
Finally, if you are personally living the gay lifestyle, you are certainly living against God's design for sex according to the words of Jesus Christ.
I was chief atheist for 27 yrs, I am 61, gay, & Pentecostal in Assemblies of God and have been since January 1974 with my lover since 1989 & Preaching weekly on TV since March 1986, over 200 pastors prophesied over me good things from God that have come to pass, I had 3 major dramatic physical healings and have 1000s of answered prayers, and over 800,000 homophobes have came to me in a few year period of time. Counseled with 1000s of str8 Christians who saw my screen name and wanted my counseling to better their Life with Christ including parents upbringing their kids in Christ Jesus counseling. No country exist that at least one person has watched my TV program. This is the tip of the iceberg on signs following me as I minister the Gospel. Over 3000 pastors want me to come preach in foreign countries, many have groups of pastors praying God bring me to them, they tell me God is telling them many will come to Jesus. Explain why these are the results if gay is sin.
Not once have I even gone to the Old Testament because the Mosaic law has been fulfilled and abolished through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, so the only place I seek information from is the New Testament.
It can almost be assured a very large part of Christianity would consider you not a Christian, OT did not pass away and in the OT is many very important lesson and info about the last days, being blind to what’s coming will make an easy transition to believing antichrist is Jesus after all. Also OT gives you a history that led up to the NT. It pretty much negates anything you say concerning Christianity when you delete the OT.
I recognize the Old Testament as a source of history, prophecy and poetry, but my faith is supported through the New Testament.
God speaks volumes to Christians in the OT; sorry to hear you wiped out the Word of God so intently.
God bless you, even though I am assuming what I have said will not change your mind.
Truth can change my mind. I am very flexible and my whole life is seeking truth. Sad that you cannot distinguish what it means to be chief atheist for 27 years of life. But statements is not truth, truth comes by studying, you could have easily shown me where Paul literally saw real gays, but the best you did was just state gay is sin. Being an atheist takes a lot of effort because it means you actually did some homework to come up with the idea there is no god(s). Otherwise you would just be a agnostic which is a person that didn’t study just sort of feels like there is no god or maybe there is but really is not making much effort to find out either way. Atheists can give answers to about everything a Christian says because there is a lot of info about being no god. Often the problem being an atheist is in the process of seeking out and uncovering truth they find GOD. So if a Christian tells you he was chief atheist they have chosen this term for a reason. It tell who they are talking to that they experienced a long time learning all things to be able to say there is no god. So of course you won’t change my mind because you presented no truth that you took time to study so you can present you reasons. I have taken time so I can present my reasons as I have above. For gay is sin and you do not need to do anything but state that. I can asked till I die but you will never ever present reasons on how you got gay into a Bible word or phrase or sentence.
Then again, anyone living in sin and promoting sin as acceptible has much to answer for in judgment.
Your assumption again that gay is sin and your completely dis-concern about a walk of 34 years with Jesus. Promoting sin is a phrase often used by homophobes. Promoting Bible study is what a good many Christian gays do. I implore you to study what your mouth says. I do not tell you to believe gay is not sin I say study then you decide if you were right or wrong. I explain what I found. Show me I am wrong. Show me Paul did not see fertility temples on every corner and sow me where Paul saw gays. Show me how you get any word to mean gays and not male temple prostitutes or fertility sex orgies in fertility temples. Show me in history where these word were used to show gays and explain to me why it took to the 15th and 16th centuries to begin to see a doctrine against gays develop. Show me it is really satan or demons doing the miracles and tongues and blessing and answered prayers in daily lives of gay Christians. Exlain to me how pasting a word meaning for sodomite is promoting sin:
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
6942 qadash (kaw-dash'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): KJV-- appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied oneself,), X wholly. 6943 Qedesh (keh'-desh); from 6942; a sanctum; Kedesh, the name of four places in Palestine: KJV-- Kedesh.
This is the key word in 7 of the 14 verses people use to say gay is sin. So you say I am promoting sin because I paste this meaning? I did not make this meaning up; it is the actual Hebrew meaning of the word in Jesus’ day.
Who will answer in judgment? Will the one that honestly earnestly all his life seeking truth and so can answer questions on any topic because they know what they are talking about. A person that loves Jesus with all their heart will face your judgment? If you can only for once in your life think about other people’s lives instead of assuming then you may yourself not have to be judged as you are judging others. You promote gay is sin without explain why. Promoting the word has meaning. 10% of the population is gay. You cannot promote that it is just a fact 670 million gays whether you like it or not and there is no promotion gays are gay. Many have gone past toleration of people like you and will stand up telling people like you that you are wrong and this is why and they go on to explain what they know with FACTS and history and much more. You on the other hand ignore history and traditions and customs of the past. You ignore how people married in the past you base everything on your personal feelings and you are conditioned that a few verses says gay is sin. For you studying these verses or comparing what the verses say with real gays I s just not required. For you proving gay is sin in the Bible is not required simple assumption is all you need. It is the Church over 700 years that promotes gay is sin. When gays stand up to these lies you call it gays promoting sin. Gays coming to Christ repent, they do a 180 degree turn and start the walk to Christ to be like him. This walk takes every Christian the rest of their lives and they will never become like Jesus as long as they are in their sinful flesh. You are in your sinful flesh. You can only head towards Christ in your daily life. Sometime people can see great changes in you, other times they just wonder if you ever will wake up to some facts about your sins.
You have this horrible idea about the OT and you have this idea go it alone a free lance Christians both very much in disobedience to God. But for you you are heading towards Christ as best you can. That is what counts to God. Other Christians sick to death with your attitude to the OT or lack of fellowshipping in a background based in Jesus with establish basics is appalling. But perhaps one day you will discover your wrong attitude of a very basic Christian virtue. But when you go out and tell people they are promoting sin and you do not take even a moment to check out that person’s walk with Jesus then this is touching on vagrant abuse of the Word of God. When statements like 23 years preaching on TV every week with 34 years in the Assemblies of God church cannot even dent your understanding of a person faith in God then there is not much hope to touch your heart at all. You are defiant and will reap the consequences of this one day. You do not have the luxury of times past. We are in the Last Days so God is about to move and many Christian will not like what happens.
In Christ Jesus
John
----- Original Message -----From: GFJ1&1 Date: Thursday, January 3, 2008 7:14 pmSubject: RE: Contact The Stables Ministries for any reasonTo: 'David Gooley'
